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Post by karen on Oct 5, 2009 10:31:42 GMT -5
Thanks Peter.
You know I was thinking about this thread later on yesterday, and I got to thinking about what the definition of suffering is to most people given some of the replies in this thread make it sound like some people simply don't seem to suffer.
But what I count as suffering is any kind of non-physical pain - or emotional upset. This would include subtly painful moments like boring moments. These may not be the dramatic Eckhart Tolle moments of suffering, but it most certainly is the kind of suffering that squelches our light moments.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 5, 2009 11:41:18 GMT -5
Agreed. I think that's a great definition of suffering. Thanks Peter. You know I was thinking about this thread later on yesterday, and I got to thinking about what the definition of suffering is to most people given some of the replies in this thread make it sound like some people simply don't seem to suffer. But what I count as suffering is any kind of non-physical pain - or emotional upset. This would include subtly painful moments like boring moments. These may not be the dramatic Eckhart Tolle moments of suffering, but it most certainly is the kind of suffering that squelches our light moments.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 5, 2009 11:41:48 GMT -5
Good point booyah5 Suffering has only been helpful for me after becoming more aware of the predicament I'm in. When all my suffering was caused by forces "out there" - I was just spinning my wheels. But now that I'm aware it's all coming from within, whenever I suffer, it's a tap on my shoulder to remind me I'm dropping into mindlessness again and to be aware.
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Post by desertrain on Oct 6, 2009 3:12:41 GMT -5
I found this Bernadette Roberts quote interesting. It's taken from an interview which can be found on Shawn's page. "Paradoxical though it may seem, the passage through consciousness or self moves contrary to self, rubs it the wrong way - and in the end, will even rub it out. Because this passage goes against the grain of self, it is, therefore, a path of suffering. Both Christ and Buddha saw the passage as one of suffering, and basically found identical ways out. What they discovered and revealed to us was that each of us has within himself or herself a "stillpoint" - comparable, perhaps to the eye of a cyclone, a spot or center of calm, imperturbability, and non-movement. Buddha articulated this central eye in negative terms as "emptiness" or "void", a refuge from the swirling cyclone of endless suffering. Christ articulated the eye in more positive terms as the "Kingdom of God" or the "Spirit within", a place of refuge and salvation from a suffering self.
For both of them, the easy way out was first to find that stillpoint and then, by attaching ourselves to it, by becoming one with it, to find a stabilizing, balanced anchor in our lives. After that, the cyclone is gradually drawn into the eye, and the suffering self comes to an end. And when there is no longer a cyclone, there is also no longer an eye. So the storms, crises, and sufferings of life are a way of finding the eye. When everything is going our way, we do not see the eye, and we feel no need to find it. But when everything is going against us, then we find the eye. So the avoidance of suffering and the desire to have everything go our own way runs contrary to the whole movement of our journey; it is all a wrong view. With the right view, however, one should be able to come to the state of oneness in six or seven years - years not merely of suffering, but years of enlightenment, for right suffering is the essence of enlightenment." So suffering may be necessary, if only to remind us to turn our attention within, while we might not care to do so when everything is going fine. Depends on the person though: some might be propelled by sheer curiosity and others need their butt kicked by the universe from time to time to keep their head on this. However, I do think most of us have a lot of unconscious suffering (=resistance) going on, as Lightmystic has been pointing out, and like Booyah5 said, there are a lot of things we wouldn't normally label as suffering, perhaps because we're so used to them.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 6, 2009 9:07:00 GMT -5
Everyone is making some good points on this thread. The word "suffering" probably represents a wide spectrum of experience. Someone suffering from a sore throat is not suffering like someone with terminal bone cancer, so it is a relative thing. Looking back, I never seemed to suffer very much (especially compared to someone like Tolle or Byron Katie), but I was very frustrated and dissatisfied that I couldn't find any answers to my many existential questions. Perhaps I had the sore-throat kind of existential suffering whereas they had the terminal bone cancer-kind of existential suffering. It also may have something to do with whether we are primarily thinkers or feelers. People who relate primarily through feeling seem to internalize issues much more viscerally than thinkers. If someone insults a thinker, it is almost impersonal (Hmmmm, is that really true or not?). If someone insults a feeler, however, it is almost as if they got slugged in the stomach. Then, there is the issue of what kind of experiences one has during childhood. Some people live through terrible situations of abuse and mistreatment and others live through rather carefree happy days with a loving supportive family and many friends.
The Buddha's life seems to represent a rather cerebral approach involving very little suffering compared to someone like Tolle, who was almost suicidal. The Buddha had wealth, status, and success, but he saw that none of those things were worth a cent in the long run. He was more like a scientist facing a concrete problem that might or might not have a solution. Like most people on this path, he also probably intuited that what he had been taught about reality was flawed in some fundamental. So, he set out on a path of inquiry and self-education. If we want to say that he was suffering, then I suspect it was the sore-throat variety. Does this offer a reasonable overall perspective on the situation?
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Sid
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Post by Sid on Oct 6, 2009 11:23:30 GMT -5
Humiliation to the fabricated ego or self is the primary source of suffering.
However deep humiliation can result in the surrender of our illusionary ego creating an awareness of spritual humility rather free from suffering.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 6, 2009 12:32:42 GMT -5
Sid: What you wrote in your last post sounds to me like a bunch of ideas, but I may be wrong. Why don't you describe your direct experiences to explain what you mean? What kind of suffering have you personally experienced? Have you felt humiliated? In what way? Did someone say something to you that assaulted your sense of selfhood or hurt you, and if so, how did you respond to that? When you refer to the "fabricated ego" what are you talking about? When you say that deep humiliation can result in the surrender of the ego, tell us in personal terms what you mean by this. Did some form of humiliation force you to surrender your ego, and if so, how did you do that or how did that happen? If you feel spiritually humble, what caused you to feel that way?
I'm not trying to attack you; I'm simply wanting to hear about your direct experiences so that I and others can relate those experiences to what you wrote. I'll give you an example of what I mean. Prior to March 5, 1984 I was a very arrogant human being. I had a lot of existential questions that I couldn't find answers to, but I still thought I was very smart. At ten o'clock on that day, however, I had what Richard Bucke in his famous book called a "cosmic consciousness" experience. For the first time in my life I confronted the Infinite in its Totality. I was overwhelmed and stunned to discover something so vast, so powerful, and so intelligent that I was like an insignificant dust mote of nothingness in comparison. I realized that almost everything I had ever thought about reality in the past was incorrect. As a result of that experience, I psychologically bowed down before THAT, became instantaneously filled with deep humility and gratitude, and have lived in happy service to THAT ever since. In my case there was no sense of humiliation nor was there anything resembling the surrender of ego (whatever that means). My sense of selfhood returned shortly after that initial CC experience, and it remained very solid for another fifteen years. Then, on August 17, 1999, it simply vanished. The experience was quite mysterious, but suddenly I saw who and what I am in total clarity, and my search came to an end.
The dramatic nature of my personal experiences is unimportant, but the experiences themselves were direct, and that is what makes it easy to describe and explain their consequences. On this board it is obvious that some people are totally lost in their heads. Other people are clear about some things but confused about other things. And a few people are totally grounded, unified in body and mind, and crystal clear. I don't want to quibble over minor issues, but when I read absolutist-type statements, it puts me into a questioning mode. When I read, "Humiliation to the fabricated ego or self is the primary source of suffering," I thought, "primary source of suffering? Is that really true? Is that what Eckhart experienced? Is that was Ramana experienced? Is that what Hui Neng experienced?" I didn't think so, and I knew it wasn't my experience. That's why I'd be interested in a more personal explanation for why you think that's true.
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Sid
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Post by Sid on Oct 6, 2009 13:45:33 GMT -5
Zendancer,
I would like to quote from my blog Right Brain Therapy @ sidhere.com which I hope will answer some of your questions:
I became interested in issues of the right brain while early in my college years and majoring in psychology…because of emotional problems I was experiencing at that time,I also underwent several years of psychotherapy,but was generally disappointed in its effectiveness …during my graduate studies I became interested in Oriental Philosophy,and this opened up a whole new way of my perceiving personalty and its problems…Taoism, perhaps the most deeply right brain orientation among the world religions, had a very significant influence on my thinking.
When in my mid twenties,during a period of deep despair over what I felt were failures in my life,I suddenly experienced a profound sensation of extraordinary freedom and lightness…all my negative feelings disappeared as if a tremendous weight had been taken off my back…it was an awareness that helped me see that all my learned expectations and goals (ego ) were simply social beliefs unnecessary to find peace and contentment.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 6, 2009 14:30:26 GMT -5
Sid: Okay, that's makes good sense. So, what happened afterwards? Did you find peace and contentment? Was it lasting? Have you felt spiritual humility ever since that time? How do you feel about your life today?
Your story reminds me of a story I read somewhere about a boy who was playing Monopoly with his family. He got so entranced in the game that he began to panic as he lost money. He started sweating and worrying and worked himself up into a very agitated state until he suddenly remembered that it was just a game. He jumped up with delight and ran outside to play and celebrate his freedom leaving his family to wonder what had happened. That's pretty much what happens when people wake up from the dream of selfhood.
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Post by silver on Aug 5, 2013 18:04:37 GMT -5
I skimmed this aged thread and thought it worth bumping to the fore.
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Post by Beingist on Aug 5, 2013 18:08:12 GMT -5
Surrender, not suffering, is the key.
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Post by Ishtahota on Aug 5, 2013 18:49:38 GMT -5
Sorry for the late reply, I haven't been on this forum since I posted it. I'm sure you guys have put this one to bed anyway judging by the responses. Souly I started this thread because it's what I've found to be the truth for myself. Although there is no concrete evidence of what I'm saying to be true, it's what I have observed in my environment and in my own experiences. And when I read about other's experiencing the same things it only validates it further. It's difficult to argue my point when most of you feel that suffering is only one way towards awakening and that there are many others. I disagree with this and I'll make an attempt to explain why, only in awakening or enlightenment is there non duality. In duality our God self and ego self are in constant conflict, this creates suffering whether one admits to it or not. Only in awakening is suffering over. Not that physical pain will end but all pain is immediately accepted and hence suffering is no more. Those of us that are not awakened are suffering. We may not recognize it but it's there. Most run away from it and that's why 95% of us are not enlightened. But if you recognize your suffering and learn to accept it, awakening will occur eventually. You will never know that it is happening though. It will just happen. I agree with what you are saying LM. The suffering is already there in duality. I agree with what you have been shown. I love people who are willing to do a little suffering. I also agree with you opening post. You have done a lot of personal work and it shows. My suffering is equal to my resistance towards my own personal truth.
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Post by onehandclapping on Aug 6, 2013 2:20:21 GMT -5
Good thread. I love pulling up old conversations like these. It's interesting how the conversations are still the same yet appear more harsh at times than these early ones. Wonder what the site will look like five years from now to a retrospective looking mind....
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Post by zendancer on Aug 6, 2013 6:13:01 GMT -5
Good thread. I love pulling up old conversations like these. It's interesting how the conversations are still the same yet appear more harsh at times than these early ones. Wonder what the site will look like five years from now to a retrospective looking mind.... Nuclear war? *smile*
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 6, 2013 8:59:40 GMT -5
Good thread. I love pulling up old conversations like these. It's interesting how the conversations are still the same yet appear more harsh at times than these early ones. Wonder what the site will look like five years from now to a retrospective looking mind.... Nuclear war? *smile* Yup, confirmed American.
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