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Post by Reefs on Nov 24, 2013 10:06:44 GMT -5
Steve, what kind of time frame are we looking at here? The rest of my life? What is the use of getting enlightened the day before one dies? Why does it take so long? It takes so long because what they're selling you is not enlightenment at all. Instead they're just selling you some random spiritual experience. Liberation/elightenment/realization/whatever has to be instanteneous, it has to be absolutely for free and it has to last forever, only then does it have value. If enlightenment is dependent on you having to maintain a certain mindstate and attitude then it's not the real thing at all. Only unconditional enlightenment is real enlightenment. Conditional enlightenment is not enlightenment at all. You must ask yourself what do you truly want. Do you want just another experience? Then go to all these snake-oil salesmen, this forum is full of them, and they looove telling their story and they looove having someone to play the perverted master/student game with. Or do you want the truth? Just be very clear about what you want. Yeah.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Nov 24, 2013 12:16:00 GMT -5
I understand what your saying. I don't think it's about conditional/unconditional. It's more about the correct conditions. The way to understand teachers and the way I figure them out is I ask, "how is what they are doing is love." That's how to dissect their actions. What can a teacher gain from a poor ass homeless person. It seems they make mistakes but I don't believe that. I just want to see how everything that seems like a mistake to me is somehow prefect. It appears we are all heading in some direction, like a school of fish, us humans are flowing together. Some might deviate or push against the flow but are still carried along in the general direction. It sounds like you want things your way. But you'll be carried along with the flow too. But everything is headed in the wrong direction! Everything is flowing, but it's flowing in the wrong direction. Only those who deviate can change things. Everyone is going with the flow, including the spiritual teachers, also all spiritual teachers on this forum, and what have they accomplished? Nothing. I'm not enlightened, you're not enlightened. Not even they are enlightened. They have brainwashed themselves into some twisted and perverted private mythology. They have suffered brain damage from all their years of spiritual practise and they call their damage "spiritual experiences". They have nothing of real value. They are all fake, without exception, bad actors. Everyone is somehow trying to spin the facts so that they can say "oh, this world is not so bad, and there are so many opportunities to learn..." No, let's be honest. The world is not a school, it is a torture chamber. You can't change the world, unless you know the truth about it, and you can't know the truth about it if you lie to yourself. So let's start being honest. The world is a torture chamber, an obscene mistake. Whatever the living and dead spiritual teachers have taught so far is a joke, not worthy of anyone's attention. Let's cut the bs and start being honest.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 12:27:05 GMT -5
Freejoy, having had some time to listen to the headless speech, that resonates a lot with the path I have found myself on. But I've got to say how brilliantly Richard Lang puts it across.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Nov 24, 2013 13:45:46 GMT -5
"What if" the torture chamber was needed to become enlightened? Then how can you say the torture chamber is bad? Then it's still a torture chamber. And the power that makes it necessary to go to a torture chamber to get enlightened is necessarily an evil power. Why not make conditions so that a torture chamber is not necessary? For god it should be very easy. He didn't do it, that means that if he exists then he is evil. Also in order to understand evil you have to look at it closely. Don't just talk about it. Look at it. Go to a gore site and look at the pictures and videos of sick people, dying people, dead people, war causalties whose bodies are torn apart, sculls split open, brains and guts all over the place, look at how actual rape and murder looks like. It's daily reality on this planet and you will look at the world differently once you acknowledge that reality really is like that. Then you instantly will stop even considering thinking of evil in the context of spirituality.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 16:45:21 GMT -5
Then it's still a torture chamber. And the power that makes it necessary to go to a torture chamber to get enlightened is necessarily an evil power. Why not make conditions so that a torture chamber is not necessary? For god it should be very easy. He didn't do it, that means that if he exists then he is evil. Also in order to understand evil you have to look at it closely. Don't just talk about it. Look at it. Go to a gore site and look at the pictures and videos of sick people, dying people, dead people, war causalties whose bodies are torn apart, sculls split open, brains and guts all over the place, look at how actual rape and murder looks like. It's daily reality on this planet and you will look at the world differently once you acknowledge that reality really is like that. Then you instantly will stop even considering thinking of evil in the context of spirituality. It appears God is the evil and the good. Of everything you wrote in this post, that bit above is worth further consideration ;-) Enjoy
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Post by silence on Nov 24, 2013 18:22:02 GMT -5
Steve, what kind of time frame are we looking at here? The rest of my life? What is the use of getting enlightened the day before one dies? Why does it take so long? It takes so long because what they're selling you is not enlightenment at all. Instead they're just selling you some random spiritual experience. Liberation/elightenment/realization/whatever has to be instanteneous, it has to be absolutely for free and it has to last forever, only then does it have value. If enlightenment is dependent on you having to maintain a certain mindstate and attitude then it's not the real thing at all. Only unconditional enlightenment is real enlightenment. Conditional enlightenment is not enlightenment at all. You must ask yourself what do you truly want. Do you want just another experience? Then go to all these snake-oil salesmen, this forum is full of them, and they looove telling their story and they looove having someone to play the perverted master/student game with. Or do you want the truth? Just be very clear about what you want. I actually don't have a problem with that.
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Post by silence on Nov 24, 2013 18:24:50 GMT -5
It takes so long because what they're selling you is not enlightenment at all. Instead they're just selling you some random spiritual experience. Liberation/elightenment/realization/whatever has to be instanteneous, it has to be absolutely for free and it has to last forever, only then does it have value. If enlightenment is dependent on you having to maintain a certain mindstate and attitude then it's not the real thing at all. Only unconditional enlightenment is real enlightenment. Conditional enlightenment is not enlightenment at all. You must ask yourself what do you truly want. Do you want just another experience? Then go to all these snake-oil salesmen, this forum is full of them, and they looove telling their story and they looove having someone to play the perverted master/student game with. Or do you want the truth? Just be very clear about what you want. I understand what your saying. I don't think it's about conditional/unconditional. It's more about the correct conditions. The way to understand teachers and the way I figure them out is I ask, "how is what they are doing is love." That's how to dissect their actions. What can a teacher gain from a poor ass homeless person. It seems they make mistakes but I don't believe that. I just want to see how everything that seems like a mistake to me is somehow prefect. It appears we are all heading in some direction, like a school of fish, us humans are flowing together. Some might deviate or push against the flow but are still carried along in the general direction. It sounds like you want things your way. But you'll be carried along with the flow too. Dude, you just need to get your life together. It has nothing to do with enlightenment.
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Post by lolly on Nov 25, 2013 6:11:02 GMT -5
To my mind there are 2 things. One is what I call self realization and the other is what I call personal development.
There's not much anyone can do about self realization. The actual state of consciousness is as you are including the life issues and insecurities or what have you. I call it realization because it's just like noticing something, like, 'oh'.
Personal development is not the same thing, because a person can become better by way of healing and by way of training the mind, but at any point in time, they are as they are, which is the true state of consciousness as it happens to be. I mean 'you' are always there as the journey goes on, right?
I think it's best to distinguish between the two because it can seem as though personal development is working toward self realization, but of course, 'you' are here now, and you are not an imaginary future you. It is still important to work on personal improvement and undergo healing and transformation, because the universe is change and old stuff needs to pass. Honing the minds concentration and perceptive ability will also awaken latent parts and the expand what the mind conceives of as possible, thereby opening a new world or a new way of seeing it. More happiness, basically.
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Post by lolly on Nov 25, 2013 7:11:06 GMT -5
To my mind there are 2 things. One is what I call self realization and the other is what I call personal development. There's not much anyone can do about self realization. The actual state of consciousness is as you are including the life issues and insecurities or what have you. I call it realization because it's just like noticing something, like, 'oh'. Personal development is not the same thing, because a person can become better by way of healing and by way of training the mind, but at any point in time, they are as they are, which is the true state of consciousness as it happens to be. I mean 'you' are always there as the journey goes on, right? I think it's best to distinguish between the two because it can seem as though personal development is working toward self realization, but of course, 'you' are here now, and you are not an imaginary future you. It is still important to work on personal improvement and undergo healing and transformation, because the universe is change and old stuff needs to pass. Honing the minds concentration and perceptive ability will also awaken latent parts and the expand what the mind conceives of as possible, thereby opening a new world or a new way of seeing it. More happiness, basically. Thoughts jump from person to person. There are evil energies and angelic energies. The evil energies can put thoughts in people minds. The Buddha and Jesus both were tempted by evil energies. Enlightened people and people who are trying to serve the Highest are targets for the evil energies. It appears many fall for greed. You agree? It has nothing to do with self-development. Sure. There are bad people and 'evil energies' as you call it. At the local church there's a mural which depicts the lower world through to higher heavens (where the angels are), and I think it's quite a good representation of things. The angels reach into planes of lower frequency for healing and to lift people's spirit. The energy is meant for healing or beneficial purposes, and not power. I always recall what my martial arts instructor used to say, 'Nothing stays the same. It gets better or it gets worse, and that's up to you'.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Nov 25, 2013 8:29:30 GMT -5
Thoughts jump from person to person. There are evil energies and angelic energies. The evil energies can put thoughts in people minds. The Buddha and Jesus both were tempted by evil energies. Enlightened people and people who are trying to serve the Highest are targets for the evil energies. It appears many fall for greed. You agree? It has nothing to do with self-development. Stop your wishful thinking and face reality. There are no benevolent angels. They are all evil, they are playing the good cop bad cop routine. If angels were good then they would have already crushed all evil demons. They would help mankind and the world would not be such an evil place. But in reality this world is a toilet, if there are higher powers then they are evil and perverted and they either don't care about our fate or they want to see us suffer.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Nov 25, 2013 8:34:52 GMT -5
I actually don't have a problem with that. Don't lie to me. You play the same perverted game, like all of the spiritual teachers. You do the "I'm just a regular guy" routine, but of course you don't think you are. You think that you're enlightened and I'm not, and then you give me advice about how to get enlightened. I know for a fact that you're not enlightened. You're a fraud with a miserable life who needs attention and approval from the interwebs to get through the day.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2013 8:39:46 GMT -5
A sage I knew used to say to his students, "Put it all down!"(PIAD!) by which he meant, "Drop all of your ideas, and become empty." PIAD is a directive admonition whereas TMT is more of an observation. Perhaps we could modify it somewhat to make it more palatable--PPPWSOIPIAD (please, pretty please, with sugar on it, put it all down).
If we PIAD, then what? The mind becomes silent, imagination takes a rest, there is seeing without knowing, and the body naturally relaxes. Who we THINK we are, and what we think ABOUT the world is no longer important. Clarity ensues, and happiness and contentment spontaneously arise.
If we PIAD, there is only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........." Going to work, interacting with people, opinionless, idea-less, selfless, only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh."
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Nov 25, 2013 8:39:52 GMT -5
Sure. There are bad people and 'evil energies' as you call it. At the local church there's a mural which depicts the lower world through to higher heavens (where the angels are), and I think it's quite a good representation of things. The angels reach into planes of lower frequency for healing and to lift people's spirit. The energy is meant for healing or beneficial purposes, and not power. I always recall what my martial arts instructor used to say, 'Nothing stays the same. It gets better or it gets worse, and that's up to you'. Why do bad people and evil energies exist? Why can't the good once and for all defeat the bad? Only one explanation, the good is actually the bad masquarading itself to fool around with its victims, like a hunter plays with its prey. The world is an unbelievably evil place. This is what people fear more than anything, that this world is rotten to the core, that there is no escape, that god himself is utterly evil, he is the definition of evil.
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Post by laughter on Nov 25, 2013 10:02:41 GMT -5
A sage I knew used to say to his students, "Put it all down!"(PIAD!) by which he meant, "Drop all of your ideas, and become empty." PIAD is a directive admonition whereas TMT is more of an observation. Perhaps we could modify it somewhat to make it more palatable-- PPPWSOIPIAD (please, pretty please, with sugar on it, put it all down). If we PIAD, then what? The mind becomes silent, imagination takes a rest, there is seeing without knowing, and the body naturally relaxes. Who we THINK we are, and what we think ABOUT the world is no longer important. Clarity ensues, and happiness and contentment spontaneously arise. If we PIAD, there is only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........." Going to work, interacting with people, opinionless, idea-less, selfless, only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 11:02:28 GMT -5
A sage I knew used to say to his students, "Put it all down!"(PIAD!) by which he meant, "Drop all of your ideas, and become empty." PIAD is a directive admonition whereas TMT is more of an observation. Perhaps we could modify it somewhat to make it more palatable--PPPWSOIPIAD (please, pretty please, with sugar on it, put it all down). If we PIAD, then what? The mind becomes silent, imagination takes a rest, there is seeing without knowing, and the body naturally relaxes. Who we THINK we are, and what we think ABOUT the world is no longer important. Clarity ensues, and happiness and contentment spontaneously arise. If we PIAD, there is only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........." Going to work, interacting with people, opinionless, idea-less, selfless, only "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh." This reminds of Sailor Bob's 'Full Stop.' At some point in the conversation here there was talk about hitting the Pause button. The trick with PIAD and Full Stop and the Pause button is that thoughts immediately arise that are pretty much like "what?" "how do I do that?" "where's the Pause button?" "How do I know if it's fully stopped?" All these absurd thoughts come up. Or even after a while of 'no thinking' there's a thought that comes up like "was that Full Stop?" yada yada yada. "Now I'm just whining." Maybe after the fact, after some sort of realization, the ability to just Full Stop or Pause or PIAD is obvious. I'm not seeing it right now. The thing about ATA is that it gives attention something to do besides ride the next thought horse that comes along. It's a substitute of sorts.
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