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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 13:16:14 GMT -5
So this topic of mockery came up in The Great Debate, and it's not as if we haven't had this meta-discussion around here like a dozen times already, but perhaps the issue is ripe once more. We all project an image onto the screen in front to the other members here, every one of us. It can never ever be anything more than a card-board cut-out of us, no matter how much of ourselves we share, no matter how fine a relief we paint of the self-portrait, it's not even a single flesh-and-blood meeting ... which just gives an image with even finer detail anyway. I'm sorry but when someone puts up an image that is one that projects seriousness and sobriety ... it's funny. The point was made to me that the ridicule might be hurtful and psychologically damaging, and that's not a laughing matter, but I don't see any examples here where someone has projected an image of vulnerability or fragility and has been subjected to ridicule. As a matter of fact, I'll say right now that as moderator that if that case arises I won't hesitate to act ... but I've never seen anything even close to that here, as this isn't the sort of milieu that attracts those seeking therapy. Yes, this is the Unmoderated section, but I'll bend the rules to suspend one and only one activity from this thread: mocking. While it's always possible that a parallel version of the thread might pop up, I'll not be the one to fire the first shot. Other than that, it's open season, no limits just as any other Unmoderated thread. Thanks for reading. When you mock, deride and abuse you make an assessment that the one being mocked, derided and abused can take it. You might be wrong. It may LOOK like someone is able to handle it, but you don't know that. Someone may say they can take it, but you don't know that. This is an internet forum, and what we see and know of each other is limited. I see the game you are playing as naive and potentially dangerous. Maybe you feel you have to live up to your name by creating humour in the form of mocking....I don't know. You are right, there are lots of assumptions at play. I hear laughter saying that he's assuming that folks know what they're in for here. And what they're in for here is different than what you encounter at other forums. But I think more important than speculating about other people is to just honestly speak up about oneself. Andrew have you felt abused here? JB obviously feels mocked and abused? Do you?
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Post by laughter on Nov 22, 2013 13:24:35 GMT -5
The duck test? Remember, the duck test is based entirely on appearances. In the "Socratic light most favorable" there was not a shred of reactivity in what Joey_Q wrote in the thread. Is the "Socratic light most favorable" something commonly known? Also, duck test?? I see your point, I think. I hear JB saying that there's a pascal's wager going on. Basically, assume the speaker is suffering is the best bet. That's a very Buddhist approach. The argument can be made, however, that the mocking approach may be the quickest way to end suffering. Not sure it has much merit, though. Duck test is : "looks, walks and talks like a duck then it's a duck". Based on the duck test, Joey's posts in the thread seem reactive, but what if he was joking? "light most favorable" is a legal term, and it means that you take the "fact section" in a legal argument in the light most favorable to the party that the "facts" were written about. You construe the story, when a subjective call has to be made, on the side of the one the story is being told about. Soccratic light -- the only thing I know about Joey is that I know nothing.
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Post by laughter on Nov 22, 2013 13:29:22 GMT -5
When you mock, deride and abuse you make an assessment that the one being mocked, derided and abused can take it. You might be wrong. It may LOOK like someone is able to handle it, but you don't know that. Someone may say they can take it, but you don't know that. This is an internet forum, and what we see and know of each other is limited. I see the game you are playing as naive and potentially dangerous. Maybe you feel you have to live up to your name by creating humour in the form of mocking....I don't know. You are right, there are lots of assumptions at play. I hear laughter saying that he's assuming that folks know what they're in for here. And what they're in for here is different than what you encounter at other forums. But I think more important than speculating about other people is to just honestly speak up about oneself. Andrew have you felt abused here? JB obviously feels mocked and abused? Do you? Obviously? ... If Joey was someone I had never corresponded with before and had been unequivocal, without calling for a license to mock in the same breath as he was politely requesting me to refrain from mocking, then that's a case of an obvious fragile facade that I'd have backed off of. If he was simply someone I'd never corresponded with before I'd want to learn more and wouldn't be heavy-handed about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 13:43:19 GMT -5
You are right, there are lots of assumptions at play. I hear laughter saying that he's assuming that folks know what they're in for here. And what they're in for here is different than what you encounter at other forums. But I think more important than speculating about other people is to just honestly speak up about oneself. Andrew have you felt abused here? JB obviously feels mocked and abused? Do you? Obviously? ... If Joey was someone I had never corresponded with before and had been unequivocal, without calling for a license to mock in the same breath as he was politely requesting me to refrain from mocking, then that's a case of an obvious fragile facade that I'd have backed off of. If he was simply someone I'd never corresponded with before I'd want to learn more and wouldn't be heavy-handed about it. I'm just taking what he's saying right now at face value and forgetting history. If he's ultimately just amusing himself, that's fine, no skin off my nose. As you say it might be an elaborate joke and that's fine with me. Andrew seems to be suffering a bit too. Tzu's reaction to being mocked is to dish it back. I think he sees that as effective in some way.
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Post by quinn on Nov 22, 2013 13:43:38 GMT -5
Mockery is an attack on a person's self-image. Some people are very wrapped up in their identities, some not so much - and that accounts for the level of intensity of the response and can get into dangerous territory. Personally, I don't see any reason for mockery. Light teasing between people who know each other very well is one thing. Mockery on an anonymous forum is quite another. What I really don't get is this: If one truly sees, with crystal clarity, the oneness of all, then how is human dualistic confusion any less precious than anything else? It deserves respect - and the more dense the confusion, the more respect needed. I tend to make the assumption that most of the people on this forum are interested in opening up to that confusion and looking at it (maybe a wrong assumption). So 'poking', to me, really means being pointedly out-front in our observations. And open to the idea that our observations could be wrong. None of this needs to be done disrespectfully, although sometimes it gets taken that way anyway. Don't have much use for sarcasm either. What is it that deserves respect? That is not mocking-puke, that's just my reaction. Ridicule in the name of no-person-here is absurd.
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Post by laughter on Nov 22, 2013 13:58:27 GMT -5
Obviously? ... If Joey was someone I had never corresponded with before and had been unequivocal, without calling for a license to mock in the same breath as he was politely requesting me to refrain from mocking, then that's a case of an obvious fragile facade that I'd have backed off of. If he was simply someone I'd never corresponded with before I'd want to learn more and wouldn't be heavy-handed about it. I'm just taking what he's saying right now at face value and forgetting history. If he's ultimately just amusing himself, that's fine, no skin off my nose. As you say it might be an elaborate joke and that's fine with me. If parts of it were a joke it's a very illustrative one -- like I said to him, I tried to disentangle and deal with each as I saw it. If it was a joke it was a joke riffing on that statement on the OP ("I find serious self-image funny"), and it demonstrated the recursive nature of these perceptions and reactions. It also expressed, very clearly a set of complaints, which I did try to address. Andrew seems to be suffering a bit too. Tzu's reaction to being mocked is to dish it back. I think he sees that as effective in some way. The thing is, that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Just because something is said not said in jest doesn't mean that it's not full of the potential for psychological damage on the part of the person reading it.
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Post by laughter on Nov 22, 2013 13:59:49 GMT -5
What is it that deserves respect? That is not mocking-puke, that's just my reaction. Ridicule in the name of no-person-here is absurd. Yeah, well that's not what that question was all about. I took what you said as that these self-images that are created deserve respect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 14:13:39 GMT -5
I vote: "the gang" doesn't mock or ridicule anyone. they will however poke stories with a stick. but some don't like having their stories stuck, and will dig their heels in. some just let it go. The thing is when heels get dug in, what's the point of poking anymore? Dug in heels is prime symptom #1 that poking ain't gonna go no where. So then if poking continues it seems more than likely it's not about airing out stories (a function I support) but about pleasure on the part of the poker. The poking that happens where someone digs in then takes a little time and then comes back and is like 'well that was funny' (regarding their own reaction) is very rare. You did it as I recall. Quinn is up for it. There are other examples. But for the most part that sort of airing out of stories is not really happening that much. Obviously my perspective has changed. I chalk that 'change' up to having had a realization, which came about after some months/years of "fighting with" reefs/e/whomever; and the end result being like .. the legs to one of my wobbly stories falling out beneath me. In hindsight, it really had nothing to do with reefs/e/whomever, whatsoever. But my interactions with them seemed to serve as a catalyst. And I really don't remember what "my story" was .. the one who's legs got taken out, but I do remember attributing words like "pompous; won't budge; wanna-be" to reefs/e/whomever .. and then, instantly, that was gone. Call it what you will, and whether or not "mocking" had anything to do with it .. I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 14:17:23 GMT -5
As I was saying, I ask questions because I am interested in your understanding of your own actions. But there are questions that you haven't answered. It's ok if you can't.
I wonder if maybe you use mockery because you find yourself short of anything else to say?
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Post by quinn on Nov 22, 2013 14:17:41 GMT -5
That is not mocking-puke, that's just my reaction. Ridicule in the name of no-person-here is absurd. Yeah, well that's not what that question was all about. I took what you said as that these self-images that are created deserve respect. Ok, ok - we can stop puking on each other. Yes, they deserve respect. Why wouldn't they? Just because a self-image is illusion doesn't make it less-than. The point is to show the illusion, not to belittle it, right? There are lots of ways to highlight illusion without resorting to "Haha - you're so full of it!".
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Post by quinn on Nov 22, 2013 14:43:57 GMT -5
The thing is when heels get dug in, what's the point of poking anymore? Dug in heels is prime symptom #1 that poking ain't gonna go no where. So then if poking continues it seems more than likely it's not about airing out stories (a function I support) but about pleasure on the part of the poker. The poking that happens where someone digs in then takes a little time and then comes back and is like 'well that was funny' (regarding their own reaction) is very rare. You did it as I recall. Quinn is up for it. There are other examples. But for the most part that sort of airing out of stories is not really happening that much. Obviously my perspective has changed. I chalk that 'change' up to having had a realization, which came about after some months/years of "fighting with" reefs/e/whomever; and the end result being like .. the legs to one of my wobbly stories falling out beneath me. In hindsight, it really had nothing to do with reefs/e/whomever, whatsoever. But my interactions with them seemed to serve as a catalyst. And I really don't remember what "my story" was .. the one who's legs got taken out, but I do remember attributing words like "pompous; won't budge; wanna-be" to reefs/e/whomever .. and then, instantly, that was gone. Call it what you will, and whether or not "mocking" had anything to do with it .. I don't know. Yeah, I thought about you when I read Max's post. It did seem that Reefs or whoever was the catalyst in all that. The legs falling out from the wobbly story - that's happened to me, too. Probably to all of us. In my case, there was no mockery involved. So, yeah, who does know. I'm pretty well convinced it has to do with intention - if you're looking for clarity, there are opportunities all around to help. Suffering helps, difficult circumstances, someone's chance remark or a quote read, a warm hug, meditation, a teacher or teaching, and on and on. I like the definitions you posted. Particularly the second definition of confront : to bring together for examination or comparison.
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Post by andrew on Nov 22, 2013 14:44:31 GMT -5
When you mock, deride and abuse you make an assessment that the one being mocked, derided and abused can take it. You might be wrong. It may LOOK like someone is able to handle it, but you don't know that. Someone may say they can take it, but you don't know that. This is an internet forum, and what we see and know of each other is limited. I see the game you are playing as naive and potentially dangerous. Maybe you feel you have to live up to your name by creating humour in the form of mocking....I don't know. You are right, there are lots of assumptions at play. I hear laughter saying that he's assuming that folks know what they're in for here. And what they're in for here is different than what you encounter at other forums. But I think more important than speculating about other people is to just honestly speak up about oneself. Andrew have you felt abused here? JB obviously feels mocked and abused? Do you? Its a little hard for me to talk about because I don't want to set myself up as a victim a) because I am never sorry to leave when I do - the time away from the forum is good time, and b) I resonate with the spiritual viewpoint about mirrors/reflections, and 'ask and it is given' etc....Neither am I a saint, and I do dish it out a bit myself. However, to answer your question. There was a time when I first came to the forum when I experienced a bit of mocking and teasing and I addressed it even then, but it all felt pretty light and harmless. Times have changed though for better or worse and there was a time earlier this year when I felt downright manipulated, bullied and persecuted. And I would say its done in very clever ways. You really have to be on the end of it to get how it happens. Waking up each morning to 50 notifications, all from the same person that I am not even talking to, gets to be quite a pain. This was at a time as well, that outside the forum, my Mum was in a very precarious state, and there was some stress involved with that. I say that to illustrate the point that we don't know what is going on in each other's lives. I will say though, that I am never sorry to walk away when I do, and time away from the forum is good time, so there is a blessing in all that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 15:12:10 GMT -5
Obviously my perspective has changed. I chalk that 'change' up to having had a realization, which came about after some months/years of "fighting with" reefs/e/whomever; and the end result being like .. the legs to one of my wobbly stories falling out beneath me. In hindsight, it really had nothing to do with reefs/e/whomever, whatsoever. But my interactions with them seemed to serve as a catalyst. And I really don't remember what "my story" was .. the one who's legs got taken out, but I do remember attributing words like "pompous; won't budge; wanna-be" to reefs/e/whomever .. and then, instantly, that was gone. Call it what you will, and whether or not "mocking" had anything to do with it .. I don't know. Yeah, I thought about you when I read Max's post. It did seem that Reefs or whoever was the catalyst in all that. The legs falling out from the wobbly story - that's happened to me, too. Probably to all of us. In my case, there was no mockery involved. So, yeah, who does know. I'm pretty well convinced it has to do with intention - if you're looking for clarity, there are opportunities all around to help. Suffering helps, difficult circumstances, someone's chance remark or a quote read, a warm hug, meditation, a teacher or teaching, and on and on. I like the definitions you posted. Particularly the second definition of confront : to bring together for examination or comparison. yeah, 'mock' is not even a good word choice, its more like a confrontation, or maybe an 'insanity intervention'. lol and its not even like the cool kids go out looking for a fight, peeps seem to bring the battle to their door. at least I remember doing so, then digging my heels in .. then losing my footing in the quicksand but yeah, leave no stone unturned, work with whatever presents itself...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 15:37:30 GMT -5
Obviously? ... If Joey was someone I had never corresponded with before and had been unequivocal, without calling for a license to mock in the same breath as he was politely requesting me to refrain from mocking, then that's a case of an obvious fragile facade that I'd have backed off of. If he was simply someone I'd never corresponded with before I'd want to learn more and wouldn't be heavy-handed about it. Unless mocking others is somehow important to you, I don't get why, when asked to stop, you just wouldn't stop. ....No need to psychologically dissect the circumstances as you've been doing. A polite request was made and if it costs you little to nothing to oblige, why not just do so?
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Post by silver on Nov 22, 2013 15:54:47 GMT -5
Obviously? ... If Joey was someone I had never corresponded with before and had been unequivocal, without calling for a license to mock in the same breath as he was politely requesting me to refrain from mocking, then that's a case of an obvious fragile facade that I'd have backed off of. If he was simply someone I'd never corresponded with before I'd want to learn more and wouldn't be heavy-handed about it. Unless mocking others is somehow important to you, I don't get why, when asked to stop, you just wouldn't stop. ....No need to psychologically dissect the circumstances as you've been doing. A polite request was made and if it costs you little to nothing to oblige, why not just do so? I think that was the subject here -- I'm not totally clear on much of anything, but it seems he's hinting that he thinks it does a body good...that intervention thing, to help someone get their spiritual head on straight or some such. I tend to agree that as an authority figure, even here, that there's no benefit to denying a mundane request.
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