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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 9:23:08 GMT -5
Wisdom is learning to do what the inner guide points you toward, or away from, even when it seems oppositional to what the mind desires, or thinks is right. Luckily, this life seems to give us endless lessons in this; some harsher than others, and chances to get it right... What occurs to me is sometimes we are given an intuitive sense or flash of what is to come (assuming a 'future' there), and yet sometimes it is still not wise, or the highest choice, to act on what we see/feel. Jesus is an example that springs to mind of someone that saw what was to come, y et the highest choice was to continue to walk ahead regardless. Martyrdom is just stupid. Makes no sense. Feels totally unnatural. What's wrong with being 100% selfish? Sounds like a concocted story to me by folks who want to control other folks. I think I see where you are coming from. You really do believe in paying a price and such, right? So you think that Steve didn't act on his intuition when he stayed at home and went back to bed. I'd say the exact opposite is the case if you see it from the perspective of self instead from the perspective of society/religion. I say that Steve followed his intuition. He was the one that was safe after all. It's hard for many to tell the difference between impulses coming from intuition and impulses coming from socialization. I'd say Steve followed the impulse that came from intuition, his brother followed the impulse that came from socialization. What felt more like ease and effortlessness, to stay at home and skip school or to make it to the bus stop anyway no matter what? What is the route of least resistance? From my vantage point, it's obvious. From someone else's vantage point maybe not so much.
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Post by andrew on Nov 26, 2013 9:41:33 GMT -5
What occurs to me is sometimes we are given an intuitive sense or flash of what is to come (assuming a 'future' there), and yet sometimes it is still not wise, or the highest choice, to act on what we see/feel. Jesus is an example that springs to mind of someone that saw what was to come, y et the highest choice was to continue to walk ahead regardless. Martyrdom is just stupid. Makes no sense. Feels totally unnatural. What's wrong with being 100% selfish? Sounds like a concocted story to me by folks who want to control other folks. I think I see where you are coming from. You really do believe in paying a price and such, right? So you think that Steve didn't act on his intuition when he stayed at home and went back to bed. I'd say the exact opposite is the case if you see it from the perspective of self instead from the perspective of society/religion. I say that Steve followed his intuition. He was the one that was safe after all. It's hard for many to tell the difference between impulses coming from intuition and impulses coming from socialization. I'd say Steve followed the impulse that came from intuition, his brother followed the impulse that came from socialization. What felt more like ease and effortlessness, to stay at home and skip school or to make it to the bus stop anyway no matter what? What is the route of least resistance? From my vantage point, it's obvious. From someone else's vantage point maybe not so much. Following our inner guide to take action even when intuition is giving us a sense of something isn't necessarily martyrdom at all. There have been many times when I have walked into a situation which I had previously sensed strongly could be awkward/uncomfortable, but I went with my inner guide (and wisdom) rather than intuition, for the reason that it was still the path of least resistance to go with the inner guide. For me, the inner guide is always the path of least resistance even when intuition is giving signals of what is to come. So I wouldn't say that Jesus was a martyr, I would say he was just following his inner guide and the path of least resistance. And, no, I don't believe in some kind of 'price'. When I read Steve's story I didn't get the impression that he was or wasn't given an intuitive sign, so I am not saying he did or didn't follow his intuition. I am simply making the point that acting on intuition isn't always the wise choice. I don't know if I resonate with the idea of being 100 per cent selfish or not. In one way, maybe yes. In another way, no. It sort of depends on the individual. I have known people that come across as pretty selfish and I dont think amping up the selfishness would be good.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 10:15:38 GMT -5
Martyrdom is just stupid. Makes no sense. Feels totally unnatural. What's wrong with being 100% selfish? Sounds like a concocted story to me by folks who want to control other folks. I think I see where you are coming from. You really do believe in paying a price and such, right? So you think that Steve didn't act on his intuition when he stayed at home and went back to bed. I'd say the exact opposite is the case if you see it from the perspective of self instead from the perspective of society/religion. I say that Steve followed his intuition. He was the one that was safe after all. It's hard for many to tell the difference between impulses coming from intuition and impulses coming from socialization. I'd say Steve followed the impulse that came from intuition, his brother followed the impulse that came from socialization. What felt more like ease and effortlessness, to stay at home and skip school or to make it to the bus stop anyway no matter what? What is the route of least resistance? From my vantage point, it's obvious. From someone else's vantage point maybe not so much. Following our inner guide to take action even when intuition is giving us a sense of something isn't necessarily martyrdom at all. There have been many times when I have walked into a situation which I had previously sensed strongly could be awkward/uncomfortable, but I went with my inner guide (and wisdom) rather than intuition, for the reason that it was still the path of least resistance to go with the inner guide. For me, the inner guide is always the path of least resistance even when intuition is giving signals of what is to come. So I wouldn't say that Jesus was a martyr, I would say he was just following his inner guide and the path of least resistance. And, no, I don't believe in some kind of 'price'. When I read Steve's story I didn't get the impression that he was or wasn't given an intuitive sign, so I am not saying he did or didn't follow his intuition. I am simply making the point that acting on intuition isn't always the wise choice. I don't know if I resonate with the idea of being 100 per cent selfish or not. In one way, maybe yes. In another way, no. It sort of depends on the individual. I have known people that come across as pretty selfish and I dont think amping up the selfishness would be good. I'd say your approach is upside down and probably the reason for the lack of joy, ease and peace in your life.
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Post by andrew on Nov 26, 2013 11:18:48 GMT -5
Following our inner guide to take action even when intuition is giving us a sense of something isn't necessarily martyrdom at all. There have been many times when I have walked into a situation which I had previously sensed strongly could be awkward/uncomfortable, but I went with my inner guide (and wisdom) rather than intuition, for the reason that it was still the path of least resistance to go with the inner guide. For me, the inner guide is always the path of least resistance even when intuition is giving signals of what is to come. So I wouldn't say that Jesus was a martyr, I would say he was just following his inner guide and the path of least resistance. And, no, I don't believe in some kind of 'price'. When I read Steve's story I didn't get the impression that he was or wasn't given an intuitive sign, so I am not saying he did or didn't follow his intuition. I am simply making the point that acting on intuition isn't always the wise choice. I don't know if I resonate with the idea of being 100 per cent selfish or not. In one way, maybe yes. In another way, no. It sort of depends on the individual. I have known people that come across as pretty selfish and I dont think amping up the selfishness would be good. I'd say your approach is upside down and probably the reason for the lack of joy, ease and peace in your life. Okay
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Post by Beingist on Nov 26, 2013 12:59:34 GMT -5
Twenty-five years ago, almost to the day (Nov. 22), I was responsible for a man's death......through a stupid mistake, an error in judgment......being in a hurry on a Friday afternoon.....getting to the bank...... It was called an accident......but it was really my fault. OSHA investigated. I was the last person to be interviewed. The investigator only had to look at me and said to me...you feel responsible...don't you? I said yes. He told me that he could line up at least six people who were just as responsible as me. (The accident happened on the following Monday). But I've never seen it that way.....I was the first link in the chain.....my mistake allowed the other links.....There were no criminal charges.... It never made the news.......my sister and parents have never known......only a small circle knew what happened..... My former wife knew....... I was in the shower when my boss called........she got me out of the shower.......no.....you have to talk to him RIGHT NOW!!!! I'll never forget that........ At first you think about it at least once a minute......then after some weeks every five minutes.........later maybe once an hour.....later maybe once a day.......then every few weeks......then months.... Now I can go many months without thinking about it......... OK.........that's probably not what you had in mind with your question......... It's the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I think that only causing the death of your own child, could be more difficult. ......... But spiritual blood? .....No. I think that would have to be something deliberate.....nasty. But this is in a way...worse...... My Teacher brought it up once.....in a haphazard way.....but I knew that he knew......and brought it up in a haphazard way.....to give me some relief from the .....guilt....[The "accident" had happened during a period of time when I......to keep it simple, was taking a break from the spiritual journey....wasn't in contact with my Teacher......]. He asked us if we had ever murdered anyone. I said, killed, but not murdered. Then I told him (them....there were about seven of us there) the story. ......... He made the point that there is a difference between being responsible for what happened.........and.......I actually can't remember the distinction he made......maybe I did get some relief......I'll have to try to pull that back up......maybe he said ..........oh.......I think {maybe} he said CAUSE ........a distinction between being responsible and having caused what happened........It was enough that he knew....and bothered (it wasn't a bother) to let me know he knew.......it was like he helped me....carry the burden........ sdp Most Dream non-duality teachers teach from a fundamental misconception that there really is a person that has choice, free will, and volition. Of course that is a nonsense. And so they offer gifts of meditation, or self-inquiry, or personal development, or clarity or some other formula or prescription for the person to be able to find peace, or find happiness, or find enlightenment. Of course that is also a nonsense. The person with choice, free will, and volition, is an illusion it is unreal. Death happens but it is impossible for an illusion to be responsible for it. There is just What's Happening....no past, no future...just Being. And What's Happening isn't happening to a me, self, or I... + 1
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 14:08:09 GMT -5
There is some wonderfully shared honesty here, and I thank those that have shared.
I'm too guarded at the moment to share my own stories, so I'm humble before you. But, something I've learned along the way is that there is a difference between self-responsibility and self-blame:
Self-responsibility is at the core of the common adage, to accept the things we cannot change and to change the things we can. It is about positively acting to change internally or externally and to accept what has happened.
Whereas self blame is the saboteur of positive change, it's the act of beating the self up in an effort to right a wrong.
I feel that when an experience has led to a worthwhile change, it is healthy to remember it sometimes. But don't forget the person that grew from those experiences also.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 14:41:03 GMT -5
Martyrdom is just stupid. Makes no sense. Feels totally unnatural. What's wrong with being 100% selfish? Sounds like a concocted story to me by folks who want to control other folks. I think I see where you are coming from. You really do believe in paying a price and such, right? So you think that Steve didn't act on his intuition when he stayed at home and went back to bed. I'd say the exact opposite is the case if you see it from the perspective of self instead from the perspective of society/religion. I say that Steve followed his intuition. He was the one that was safe after all. It's hard for many to tell the difference between impulses coming from intuition and impulses coming from socialization. I'd say Steve followed the impulse that came from intuition, his brother followed the impulse that came from socialization. What felt more like ease and effortlessness, to stay at home and skip school or to make it to the bus stop anyway no matter what? What is the route of least resistance? From my vantage point, it's obvious. From someone else's vantage point maybe not so much. Following our inner guide to take action even when intuition is giving us a sense of something isn't necessarily martyrdom at all. There have been many times when I have walked into a situation which I had previously sensed strongly could be awkward/uncomfortable, but I went with my inner guide (and wisdom) rather than intuition, for the reason that it was still the path of least resistance to go with the inner guide. For me, the inner guide is always the path of least resistance even when intuition is giving signals of what is to come. So I wouldn't say that Jesus was a martyr, I would say he was just following his inner guide and the path of least resistance. And, no, I don't believe in some kind of 'price'. When I read Steve's story I didn't get the impression that he was or wasn't given an intuitive sign, so I am not saying he did or didn't follow his intuition. I am simply making the point that acting on intuition isn't always the wise choice. I don't know if I resonate with the idea of being 100 per cent selfish or not. In one way, maybe yes. In another way, no. It sort of depends on the individual. I have known people that come across as pretty selfish and I dont think amping up the selfishness would be good. Self centered and self aware is good, selfish is not the same thing though, and is not always good, though sometimes its appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 19:14:33 GMT -5
I have never experienced a death or even a life threatening sickness of a close family member. I have a younger brother and growing up I was responsible for him although I'm just 1 1/2 older then him. We have been together all our lives and we are very close. I'm sure everyone is going to die before me. So sometimes I visualize being at their funeral so I'm prepared. You sound like some of the folks around here who are preparing for their own death, or enlightenment. They want to be there to witness their own absence...hehe As impossible as it may seem, it's still believed to be true within the dream of me...
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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 20:47:38 GMT -5
Martyrdom is just stupid. Makes no sense. Feels totally unnatural. What's wrong with being 100% selfish? Sounds like a concocted story to me by folks who want to control other folks. Who are the ones who end of getting people enlightened or saved? It's not the selfish people. Jesus went to the cross but saved many people and still saving people thousands of years later. Buddha starved himself half to death. No telling how many people become enlightened because of him. You don't even know if Jesus and Buddha even existed, not to mention if the stories about them have any kind of accuracy at all. It's just downright funny to see folks take those stories as the real deal and then draw conclusion from it which they use as guidance. It's all a bunch of assumptions. You have your inner guidance, intuition, which is never going to fail you. The story Steve shared is an excellent story. If you follow your intuition only, you will never end up in situations that cause you harm because intuition is designed to preserve self. And your intuition only works for you alone. You cannot listen to someone else's intuition. In the A-H teachings they compare intuition with the navigational system in your car, like Magellan and such. That kind of guidance system is giving you suggestions about what to do based on where you are and where you want to go. That's how your route is calculated. It's only for you alone. If you are in Washington and want to go to Boston, then Magellan will give you specific directions, similar to the impulses that come from intuition, that will lead you there. If you only listen to your own Magellan, you'll certainly reach your destination. But that's not what usually happens. What often happens is that people compare where they are going with where other folks are going and that's where it gets chaotic. If you want to go from Washington to Boston and your brother wants to go from Seattle to San Francisco, then the directions his guidance system is giving him are of no use to you. Similarly, if you want to get around with ease in Paris, you need the latest map that shows all the current streets and hotels and shops. But if you were just digging up a map of Paris from 2000 years ago and want to use it as guidance, you will certainly get lost.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 20:52:08 GMT -5
Following our inner guide to take action even when intuition is giving us a sense of something isn't necessarily martyrdom at all. There have been many times when I have walked into a situation which I had previously sensed strongly could be awkward/uncomfortable, but I went with my inner guide (and wisdom) rather than intuition, for the reason that it was still the path of least resistance to go with the inner guide. For me, the inner guide is always the path of least resistance even when intuition is giving signals of what is to come. So I wouldn't say that Jesus was a martyr, I would say he was just following his inner guide and the path of least resistance. And, no, I don't believe in some kind of 'price'. When I read Steve's story I didn't get the impression that he was or wasn't given an intuitive sign, so I am not saying he did or didn't follow his intuition. I am simply making the point that acting on intuition isn't always the wise choice. I don't know if I resonate with the idea of being 100 per cent selfish or not. In one way, maybe yes. In another way, no. It sort of depends on the individual. I have known people that come across as pretty selfish and I dont think amping up the selfishness would be good. Self centered and self aware is good, selfish is not the same thing though, and is not always good, though sometimes its appropriate. Selfish based on lack consciousness is certainly not what I am talking about.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 26, 2013 21:26:29 GMT -5
Wisdom is learning to do what the inner guide points you toward, or away from, even when it seems oppositional to what the mind desires, or thinks is right. Luckily, this life seems to give us endless lessons in this; some harsher than others, and chances to get it right... What occurs to me is sometimes we are given an intuitive sense or flash of what is to come (assuming a 'future' there), and yet sometimes it is still not wise, or the highest choice, to act on what we see/feel. Jesus is an example that springs to mind of someone that saw what was to come, yet the highest choice was to continue to walk ahead regardless. If you had felt and acted upon an intuitive sense, you may have prevented your brother from giving you (and others) an incredible gift of love and service. That may apply to some of the other examples in this thread also. Sometimes our inner guidance, and the highest action, is to ignore intuition. This is a sensitive subject and I am trying to be sensitive, the last thing I want to do here is cause offence. I am just looking at this from different angles and offering different possibilities. I'm not offering panacea's as much as saying that from our position, its sometimes hard to see that seemingly bad situations MAY contain gifts, and maybe it is a disservice to deny people from offering those gifts. That's not my way of saying that if we see an old lady being mugged to walk on thinking 'oh its okay, she is offering a gift!'. Its my way of saying...we don't know, we can only do our best, and maybe a lesson for us, as humans, is forgiveness, understanding, acceptance. I drifted into my career path, and essentially got stuck there after three years......by getting married. I have never been very strongly engaged in life, probably the majority of the reason for not choosing a career but falling into one. Point, I wasn't the happiest or most fulfilled in what I had to do to earn money to live. ......I'll get back to that... I guess almost everybody has played one of those little picture-puzzle games where you move interlocking pieces that have part of a picture on them, you get them in the right order and they form a picture. You can get everything just right, except two pieces are in the wrong place.......you essentially have to start all over. Anyway, moving one piece effects all the others......you can't move one piece without it effecting all the others. To get the right picture you have to find a certain sequence in moving the pieces. Life and all that is, is like a giant web.........a matrix.....movement in one place effects everywhere else. Physics has even proved this over and over, it's called entanglement or non-locality. Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance". It's one of the main reasons he could never believe that quantum mechanics was the ultimate picture of reality. ........Anyway, everything that is, forms a web...... I wondered as to whether to share the following, or not. As intuition or knowing about future possibilities has come up, It feels right to share. For at least six months before the accident, the thought came to me every day at least once a day, sometimes many times a day, "Quit fill-in-the-blank (the name of my company). I didn't think anything much about it, I figured it was just from me...thoughts bubbling up....... but there it was every day "Quit Acme Bla-Bla-Bla..." (making up a name). ...........And then the accident happened........ And it was a couple of weeks before I noticed that that thought had not come back to me once....I had not said it to my self even once..........and then I began to get a sense that it had been a real warning......that the thing that had happened was going to happen no matter what.....and that I had been given an opportunity not to be involved in it.....but I couldn't hear it as a warning........ back to the ifing..........there were dozens of factors in the accident....even one happening differently could have caused things to be different......yet everything fell into place that made the accident virtually inevitable (it was inevitable in the sense that it happened). All that may or may not be just my imagination, but those thoughts are probably what have given me the most relief....and seeing.....I was just a tiny cog in a wheel........ I think Steve's story is my one exception to what could have been worse.......(I would say that brother is virtually equal to son or daughter). I don't really know what to say....very moving.......the finest steel is forged over and over.......the finest swords are heated and folded, beaten, forged.......hundreds of times.......beaten between hammer and anvil........... Thanks everyone..........ZD and everyone else.........Andrew..........everyone.........autumleaf........ (and FWIW, I've been with the same company all this time.......four weeks left.......retiring.......going to let Uncle Sam help take of me.......... :-)........ sdp
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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 21:47:14 GMT -5
back to the ifing..........there were dozens of factors in the accident....even one happening differently could have caused things to be different......yet everything fell into place that made the accident virtually inevitable (it was inevitable in the sense that it happened). All that may or may not be just my imagination, but those thoughts are probably what have given me the most relief....and seeing.....I was just a tiny cog in a wheel........ That's right, if you can see every event is rendezvousing then it all begins to make sense. That's the mindset of unworthiness. You think there are lessons to learn and that you have to prove your worthiness? Suffering isn't necessary at all, it's optional.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 27, 2013 11:28:31 GMT -5
You don't even know if Jesus and Buddha even existed, not to mention if the stories about them have any kind of accuracy at all. It's just downright funny to see folks take those stories as the real deal and then draw conclusion from it which they use as guidance. It's all a bunch of assumptions. You have your inner guidance, intuition, which is never going to fail you. The story Steve shared is an excellent story. If you follow your intuition only, you will never end up in situations that cause you harm because intuition is designed to preserve self. And your intuition only works for you alone. You cannot listen to someone else's intuition. In the A-H teachings they compare intuition with the navigational system in your car, like Magellan and such. That kind of guidance system is giving you suggestions about what to do based on where you are and where you want to go. That's how your route is calculated. It's only for you alone. If you are in Washington and want to go to Boston, then Magellan will give you specific directions, similar to the impulses that come from intuition, that will lead you there. If you only listen to your own Magellan, you'll certainly reach your destination. But that's not what usually happens. What often happens is that people compare where they are going with where other folks are going and that's where it gets chaotic. If you want to go from Washington to Boston and your brother wants to go from Seattle to San Francisco, then the directions his guidance system is giving him are of no use to you. Similarly, if you want to get around with ease in Paris, you need the latest map that shows all the current streets and hotels and shops. But if you were just digging up a map of Paris from 2000 years ago and want to use it as guidance, you will certainly get lost. I believe they both existed.I think consciousness has to be educated. Intuition is more like access to our Highest Intelligence, God, or intermediator. Could be that the intuition is the fusion point between something and nothing. Everything springs from the Source. In other words, intuition can be use for harm or no harm. It has nothing to do with creating favorable outcomes for the ego or anything in particular. A torturer can get creative. What's important is the overall compass is set correct. Intention is what creates intuition. Say one has intention for enlightenment then ones intention isn't for the personal self. It's like your working for the whole, all humankind, the whole universe. Intuition will guide you but it doesn't mean no personal harm will come to you. Who would you be without that belief?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 11:34:09 GMT -5
What would the belief be without a HIM?!
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Post by Reefs on Nov 27, 2013 12:50:06 GMT -5
Now we don't wanna jump to conclusion here, do we?
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