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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 16:29:17 GMT -5
Be that as it may.  1. In a situation like this, to say "you can choose to drop the burden", is rather meaningless, isn't it? 2. If SDP had a choice, do you think he would have chosen the pain of feeling guilt for 25 years? 1. Yes, but the choice still remains. 2. Apparently he has, hopefully for him, that will change. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 16:34:44 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing sdp. That is a palpably heavy load. Makes my little recurring regrets so trivial in comparison.I second Lolly's suggestion of seeking the counsel of a pro. A few years after it happened I discussed it with a Psychiatrist and his coworker, a Psychologist/therapist. My Teacher I mentioned was also a Psychologist by profession. I quite understand your comment. When life seems to get difficult, I know I can get through anything, because to worst thing has already happened (one possible exception already noted). Concerning getting 'over it'. Two functions, separate, thinking and feeling. I have come to terms with it intellectually, emotions have a mind of their own. I'm OK. "This too will pass". sdp 59. O Beloved, Put attention neither on pleasure nor on pain, but between these. all pain is an oppurtunity to realize, to be profoundly self aware....this event has been a wonderful gift to you from God for the last several decades....don't waste it ;-) |
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Post by zendancer on Nov 24, 2013 17:44:03 GMT -5
Everyone is always doing exactly what s/he has to be doing, but there is no entity responsible for what is happening. Seeing this deeply leads to great spaciousness, acceptance, humility, and freedom. SDP's story reminds me of the scene in "Good Will Hunting" when the psychologist grabs Will's shoulders and says, "you're not responsible." Will says with a grin, "I know." The psychologist repeats the same thing more strongly, and Will responds the same way. The third time the psychologist repeats it the words finally penetrate, and there is an emotional release.
I once saw some small treelimbs that had washed across the entrance of two 24-inch culverts under a city street close to my home. As a builder with lots of construction experience, I thought, "I ought to clear that brush to prevent other brush from piling up there in the future." A few days later, I saw the same limbs, and had the same thought again, but still didn't feel a strong enough impulse to get out of my truck and do anything. A week or so later there was a huge rainstorm. More limbs, leaves, and brush flowed down the small creek to the culverts and got stuck on the limbs that I had seen. The debris built up until the culverts became blocked and water rose, formed a small lake behind the road, and began flowing over the road at a depth of about 12 inches and 30 feet wide. Two city workers came to find out why there was water over the road. They put on hip boots and waded through the water over the street to the point above the culverts. They reached down into the water with rakes in an attempt to clear the obstruction that was now about 40 inches under the surface. One man made the mistake of stepping off the road into the hip-deep water to get better leverage--not realizing the force of the water under the surface was huge. He was partially sucked into one of the culverts. The other man grabbed his clothes and held his head above the water as his hip boots began filling up. A cable TV guy saw what was happening from two yards up the street and rushed to help. Not knowing about the culverts, he stepped off the street in front of the second culvert and was immediately sucked out of sight. The one guy holding up the first city worker finally lost his grip and the first worker also disappeared into the subsurface vortex. The city had to dig up 80 feet of culverting, the street, and a neighbor's front yard to recover the bodies. I have thought about that incident a few times over the years, but see it only as a tragic event for the men and families involved. I know that everything had to happen exactly the way it happened.
The mind can speculate about alternative hyptothetical scenarios regarding anything that happens, but speculation is just speculation. The truth is what it is. All I can say to SDP is, "You are not responsible. You are no more responsible for what happened 22 years ago than you are for what's happening right this moment. Look deep, focus on the truth of what is, and let all thoughts of responsibility or guilt go. You are not who you think you are, and who you think you are is not, and never has been, in control of anything."
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Post by lolly on Nov 24, 2013 18:58:25 GMT -5
Where I lived, it was a dangerous place. Life was pretty vicious and there was a constant sense of danger. There was a different set of survival skills than what we'd consider normal, and to break away from that lifestyle was a process of being threatened by it, being protected by it, being a figure in it and lastly making a break from it.
They say there's a choice and you can just walk away, but no one just walks away. It's a very difficult choice. For one thing, 'the boys' think you're abandoning them, you become a dog and they come after you. For another thing, as I mentioned, 'being protected by it', walking off leaves your family vulnerable. You gotta do these things right because if you eff it up, maybe the boys'll take it out on your little sister, or whatever.
Without detail, I did get out of that, and people got hurt as a result. That's regrettable and it's hard to live with, but it doesn't stop there. I was also problematic persona, and certain traits wouldn't fit into mainstream social norms... my normal wasn't normal... and I hurt people because my behavioural skillset was what it was.
It all adds up to things that are hard parts of my life.
The result is like, for example, I was with a group of people who were talking about what they were doing when they were 19 years old. That's not a conversation I can have. It just wouldn't be appropriate to say... it would create an 'awkward silence'. People would be disturbed or judge like, 'how could you?' and 'why didn't you do something?' etc etc and so on. I've asked myself similar questions thousands of times.
If you read Louise Hay, the opening line in How to Heal your Life explains how 'you' are responsible for whatever it is. That is intended as an empowering statement. Here on this thread the emphasis is on how 'you' are not responsible for the event. None of these things touches upon the actuality of it in life, what it's actually like, how it is. It's deeper in life and these things made people who they are today, it's all very intricate and interwoven and it's actually quite hard to really understand a person.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 19:28:20 GMT -5
Where I lived, it was a dangerous place. Life was pretty vicious and there was a constant sense of danger. There was a different set of survival skills than what we'd consider normal, and to break away from that lifestyle was a process of being threatened by it, being protected by it, being a figure in it and lastly making a break from it. They say there's a choice and you can just walk away, but no one just walks away. It's a very difficult choice. For one thing, 'the boys' think you're abandoning them, you become a dog and they come after you. For another thing, as I mentioned, 'being protected by it', walking off leaves your family vulnerable. You gotta do these things right because if you eff it up, maybe the boys'll take it out on your little sister, or whatever. Without detail, I did get out of that, and people got hurt as a result. That's regrettable and it's hard to live with, but it doesn't stop there. I was also problematic persona, and certain traits wouldn't fit into mainstream social norms... my normal wasn't normal... and I hurt people because my behavioural skillset was what it was. It all adds up to things that are hard parts of my life. The result is like, for example, I was with a group of people who were talking about what they were doing when they were 19 years old. That's not a conversation I can have. It just wouldn't be appropriate to say... it would create an 'awkward silence'. People would be disturbed or judge like, 'how could you?' and 'why didn't you do something?' etc etc and so on. I've asked myself similar questions thousands of times. If you read Louise Hay, the opening line in How to Heal your Life explains how 'you' are responsible for whatever it is. That is intended as an empowering statement. Here on this thread the emphasis is on how 'you' are not responsible for the event. None of these things touches upon the actuality of it in life, what it's actually like, how it is. It's deeper in life and these things made people who they are today, it's all very intricate and interwoven and it's actually quite hard to really understand a person. :-) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 20:14:08 GMT -5
When I was growing up it was a less than ideal environment for children, coulda been much worse though, and is for many.
Poverty, scarcity of food and clothing, emotional abuse, and parents with drug and alchohol problems etc.
I'm the oldest of seven siblings, but five of them lived in a different state most of my life.
All except my younger brother Kevin, who was there for everything, thick and thin, we were very close, and I was the typical big brother, protecting him from bullies, making sure he had food etc.
I started track and cross country in highschool and in short order; 2 years, made it to national championships and had a chance to go away for college on athletic scholarships. I resolved to not go because it would mean leaving Kevin behind alone....we were very close.
By my senior year in highschool I had worked enough to buy a cheap car which meant we could sleep an extra 30 minutes before school because we didn't have to take the school bus...we lived in a rural area many miles from school.
One day I had the sniffles, not REALLY sick, just enough to have an excuse to not go to school that day....so I decided to stay home....Kevin begged me to drive him to school as it was a very cold dark rainy morning...was pouring down cats and dogs and he didn't want to catch the bus....I refused, which meant that he had to run to catch the school bus.
Because we had been driving to school, the bus driver was not use to stopping at our driveway any longer, so she passed our stop not seeing him in the dark and rain.
Kevin took off running to catch the bus at it's next stop.
There was a lot of mud from construction on the side of the road so Kevin ran on edge of the road.
I had fallen back to sleep by then, but 'felt' this scream in my head that woke me up...I knew something was horribly wrong and started getting dressed for no reason.
Minutes later a neighbor comes knocking on the door saying "Kevin was hit by a truck and is hurt but he's alright".
I ran out the door past her and found Kevin laying in a driveway, broken femur with leg all twisted....okay...fixable....was barely conscious though, and went unconcious seconds after I arrived and started asperating on his own vomit...classic signs of head trauma....not good.
My mother arrived and totally lost it but I stayed calm as no one else was, and somebody needed to...I cleared his airway as best I could...eventually the ambulance arrived.
Several hours later we were allowed in to see him and I was not prepared for it...I was calm until then but seeing Kevin's chest heaving mechanically up and down on the resperator broke me down...I ran out so Kevin would not sense me crying and so my family wouldn't see me weak....I composed myself and came back in...Docs said he wouldn't live the night...he did...then they said he wouldn't live 36 hours, he did...then 72 hours...he did....then they said he would not live a week....he did....I stayed at the hospital...lived there, for six months, the entire time with the docs saying he would not last much longer....there was no time to think about blame or the events of that morning, there was only getting through the next few minutes.
Eventually, with no real change in Kevin's state of conciousness, they prinounced him as out if the coma, but with severe brain damage...for the rest of his life, as short as they said it would be, he would be as he was....Kevin was lost even though he was technically out of his coma....eventually, after almost two years, his brain healed enough that he could laugh and smile, but he never spoke again, never walked again, never ate food again, too much damage to the brain stem...he remained like a 6 month old infant for the rest of his life.
Over a decade later he got a staff infection, and as an adult I stayed with him as he passed....comforted him, told him it was okay to let go...he went very peacefully and gracefully. We were always very connected, like twins, it was very obvious that he was not dying, only passing on...leaving the body, but not dying.
There was a very brief period where I felt responsible...he was my little brother, if I had gotten my lazy ass outa bed and drove him to school, he'd be alive and well possibly.
But if the bus had stopped at our stop, if there had not been road construction, if it had not been raining so hard....if the guy who had hit him with his truck had gotten a little more sleep and had been a tiny bit more alert.....
Everything happens as its supposed to happen.....
"Here is the sphere of change change change. Through change, consume change."
Life flows, and unfolds, and happens how it happens....if you get attached, to anything, and don't accept and let go, you will suffer....that is the way of things....there is a beauty in this.
Accept what is, don't get attached, and live in this moment....nothing remains except your awareness, so cling to nothing.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 24, 2013 20:29:29 GMT -5
if I had gotten my lazy ass outa bed and drove him to school, he'd be alive and well possibly. But if the bus had stopped at our stop, if there had not been road construction, if it had not been raining so hard....if the guy who had hit him with his truck had gotten a little more sleep and had been a tiny bit more alert..... I know about the ifing........hundreds........ sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 20:51:49 GMT -5
if I had gotten my lazy ass outa bed and drove him to school, he'd be alive and well possibly. But if the bus had stopped at our stop, if there had not been road construction, if it had not been raining so hard....if the guy who had hit him with his truck had gotten a little more sleep and had been a tiny bit more alert..... I know about the ifing........hundreds........ sdp The 'ifs' pile up high enough that eventually it becomes clear that there is more than mere 'chance' at play....then the anger and resentment can take over...but a big enough view usually puts everything into perspective :-) |
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Post by andrew on Nov 25, 2013 14:38:34 GMT -5
Just want to say while I'm on this side of the forum (its a different world over here lol), that I have been appreciating this thread. And touched by it. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 21:53:37 GMT -5
Just want to say while I'm on this side of the forum (its a different world over here lol), that I have been appreciating this thread. And touched by it. Thank you. :-) |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 25, 2013 22:26:39 GMT -5
When I was growing up it was a less than ideal environment for children, coulda been much worse though, and is for many. Poverty, scarcity of food and clothing, emotional abuse, and parents with drug and alchohol problems etc. I'm the oldest of seven siblings, but five of them lived in a different state most of my life. All except my younger brother Kevin, who was there for everything, thick and thin, we were very close, and I was the typical big brother, protecting him from bullies, making sure he had food etc. I started track and cross country in highschool and in short order; 2 years, made it to national championships and had a chance to go away for college on athletic scholarships. I resolved to not go because it would mean leaving Kevin behind alone....we were very close. By my senior year in highschool I had worked enough to buy a cheap car which meant we could sleep an extra 30 minutes before school because we didn't have to take the school bus...we lived in a rural area many miles from school. One day I had the sniffles, not REALLY sick, just enough to have an excuse to not go to school that day....so I decided to stay home....Kevin begged me to drive him to school as it was a very cold dark rainy morning...was pouring down cats and dogs and he didn't want to catch the bus....I refused, which meant that he had to run to catch the school bus. Because we had been driving to school, the bus driver was not use to stopping at our driveway any longer, so she passed our stop not seeing him in the dark and rain. Kevin took off running to catch the bus at it's next stop. There was a lot of mud from construction on the side of the road so Kevin ran on edge of the road. I had fallen back to sleep by then, but 'felt' this scream in my head that woke me up...I knew something was horribly wrong and started getting dressed for no reason. Minutes later a neighbor comes knocking on the door saying "Kevin was hit by a truck and is hurt but he's alright". I ran out the door past her and found Kevin laying in a driveway, broken femur with leg all twisted....okay...fixable....was barely conscious though, and went unconcious seconds after I arrived and started asperating on his own vomit...classic signs of head trauma....not good. My mother arrived and totally lost it but I stayed calm as no one else was, and somebody needed to...I cleared his airway as best I could...eventually the ambulance arrived. Several hours later we were allowed in to see him and I was not prepared for it...I was calm until then but seeing Kevin's chest heaving mechanically up and down on the resperator broke me down...I ran out so Kevin would not sense me crying and so my family wouldn't see me weak....I composed myself and came back in...Docs said he wouldn't live the night...he did...then they said he wouldn't live 36 hours, he did...then 72 hours...he did....then they said he would not live a week....he did....I stayed at the hospital...lived there, for six months, the entire time with the docs saying he would not last much longer....there was no time to think about blame or the events of that morning, there was only getting through the next few minutes. Eventually, with no real change in Kevin's state of conciousness, they prinounced him as out if the coma, but with severe brain damage...for the rest of his life, as short as they said it would be, he would be as he was....Kevin was lost even though he was technically out of his coma....eventually, after almost two years, his brain healed enough that he could laugh and smile, but he never spoke again, never walked again, never ate food again, too much damage to the brain stem...he remained like a 6 month old infant for the rest of his life. Over a decade later he got a staff infection, and as an adult I stayed with him as he passed....comforted him, told him it was okay to let go...he went very peacefully and gracefully. We were always very connected, like twins, it was very obvious that he was not dying, only passing on...leaving the body, but not dying. There was a very brief period where I felt responsible...he was my little brother, if I had gotten my lazy ass outa bed and drove him to school, he'd be alive and well possibly. But if the bus had stopped at our stop, if there had not been road construction, if it had not been raining so hard....if the guy who had hit him with his truck had gotten a little more sleep and had been a tiny bit more alert..... Everything happens as its supposed to happen..... "Here is the sphere of change change change. Through change, consume change." Life flows, and unfolds, and happens how it happens....if you get attached, to anything, and don't accept and let go, you will suffer....that is the way of things....there is a beauty in this. Accept what is, don't get attached, and live in this moment....nothing remains except your awareness, so cling to nothing. This could also be a story about following your intuition vs. following concepts, inner guidance vs. outer guidance, intuition vs. rules. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 0:33:49 GMT -5
When I was growing up it was a less than ideal environment for children, coulda been much worse though, and is for many. Poverty, scarcity of food and clothing, emotional abuse, and parents with drug and alchohol problems etc. I'm the oldest of seven siblings, but five of them lived in a different state most of my life. All except my younger brother Kevin, who was there for everything, thick and thin, we were very close, and I was the typical big brother, protecting him from bullies, making sure he had food etc. I started track and cross country in highschool and in short order; 2 years, made it to national championships and had a chance to go away for college on athletic scholarships. I resolved to not go because it would mean leaving Kevin behind alone....we were very close. By my senior year in highschool I had worked enough to buy a cheap car which meant we could sleep an extra 30 minutes before school because we didn't have to take the school bus...we lived in a rural area many miles from school. One day I had the sniffles, not REALLY sick, just enough to have an excuse to not go to school that day....so I decided to stay home....Kevin begged me to drive him to school as it was a very cold dark rainy morning...was pouring down cats and dogs and he didn't want to catch the bus....I refused, which meant that he had to run to catch the school bus. Because we had been driving to school, the bus driver was not use to stopping at our driveway any longer, so she passed our stop not seeing him in the dark and rain. Kevin took off running to catch the bus at it's next stop. There was a lot of mud from construction on the side of the road so Kevin ran on edge of the road. I had fallen back to sleep by then, but 'felt' this scream in my head that woke me up...I knew something was horribly wrong and started getting dressed for no reason. Minutes later a neighbor comes knocking on the door saying "Kevin was hit by a truck and is hurt but he's alright". I ran out the door past her and found Kevin laying in a driveway, broken femur with leg all twisted....okay...fixable....was barely conscious though, and went unconcious seconds after I arrived and started asperating on his own vomit...classic signs of head trauma....not good. My mother arrived and totally lost it but I stayed calm as no one else was, and somebody needed to...I cleared his airway as best I could...eventually the ambulance arrived. Several hours later we were allowed in to see him and I was not prepared for it...I was calm until then but seeing Kevin's chest heaving mechanically up and down on the resperator broke me down...I ran out so Kevin would not sense me crying and so my family wouldn't see me weak....I composed myself and came back in...Docs said he wouldn't live the night...he did...then they said he wouldn't live 36 hours, he did...then 72 hours...he did....then they said he would not live a week....he did....I stayed at the hospital...lived there, for six months, the entire time with the docs saying he would not last much longer....there was no time to think about blame or the events of that morning, there was only getting through the next few minutes. Eventually, with no real change in Kevin's state of conciousness, they prinounced him as out if the coma, but with severe brain damage...for the rest of his life, as short as they said it would be, he would be as he was....Kevin was lost even though he was technically out of his coma....eventually, after almost two years, his brain healed enough that he could laugh and smile, but he never spoke again, never walked again, never ate food again, too much damage to the brain stem...he remained like a 6 month old infant for the rest of his life. Over a decade later he got a staff infection, and as an adult I stayed with him as he passed....comforted him, told him it was okay to let go...he went very peacefully and gracefully. We were always very connected, like twins, it was very obvious that he was not dying, only passing on...leaving the body, but not dying. There was a very brief period where I felt responsible...he was my little brother, if I had gotten my lazy ass outa bed and drove him to school, he'd be alive and well possibly. But if the bus had stopped at our stop, if there had not been road construction, if it had not been raining so hard....if the guy who had hit him with his truck had gotten a little more sleep and had been a tiny bit more alert..... Everything happens as its supposed to happen..... "Here is the sphere of change change change. Through change, consume change." Life flows, and unfolds, and happens how it happens....if you get attached, to anything, and don't accept and let go, you will suffer....that is the way of things....there is a beauty in this. Accept what is, don't get attached, and live in this moment....nothing remains except your awareness, so cling to nothing. This could also be a story about following your intuition vs. following concepts, inner guidance vs. outer guidance, intuition vs. rules. Wisdom is learning to do what the inner guide points you toward, or away from, even when it seems oppositional to what the mind desires, or thinks is right. Luckily, this life seems to give us endless lessons in this; some harsher than others, and chances to get it right... |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 26, 2013 2:03:14 GMT -5
This could also be a story about following your intuition vs. following concepts, inner guidance vs. outer guidance, intuition vs. rules. Wisdom is learning to do what the inner guide points you toward, or away from, even when it seems oppositional to what the mind desires, or thinks is right. Luckily, this life seems to give us endless lessons in this; some harsher than others, and chances to get it right... Your story is a very good example for all of that. Society (outer guidance) would probably want you to feel guilty for the rest of your life. Your intuition (inner guidance) says it was somehow bound to happen. Would you say that the state of mind your brother was in when he left for school was somehow a match to what happened on the road? |
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2013 4:25:41 GMT -5
Just want to say while I'm on this side of the forum (its a different world over here lol), that I have been appreciating this thread. And touched by it. Thank you. :-) powerful story Steve. |
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Post by andrew on Nov 26, 2013 6:49:42 GMT -5
This could also be a story about following your intuition vs. following concepts, inner guidance vs. outer guidance, intuition vs. rules. Wisdom is learning to do what the inner guide points you toward, or away from, even when it seems oppositional to what the mind desires, or thinks is right. Luckily, this life seems to give us endless lessons in this; some harsher than others, and chances to get it right... What occurs to me is sometimes we are given an intuitive sense or flash of what is to come (assuming a 'future' there), and yet sometimes it is still not wise, or the highest choice, to act on what we see/feel. Jesus is an example that springs to mind of someone that saw what was to come, yet the highest choice was to continue to walk ahead regardless. If you had felt and acted upon an intuitive sense, you may have prevented your brother from giving you (and others) an incredible gift of love and service. That may apply to some of the other examples in this thread also. Sometimes our inner guidance, and the highest action, is to ignore intuition. This is a sensitive subject and I am trying to be sensitive, the last thing I want to do here is cause offence. I am just looking at this from different angles and offering different possibilities. I'm not offering panacea's as much as saying that from our position, its sometimes hard to see that seemingly bad situations MAY contain gifts, and maybe it is a disservice to deny people from offering those gifts. That's not my way of saying that if we see an old lady being mugged to walk on thinking 'oh its okay, she is offering a gift!'. Its my way of saying...we don't know, we can only do our best, and maybe a lesson for us, as humans, is forgiveness, understanding, acceptance. |
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