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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 12:13:44 GMT -5
Could you briefly (?) describe how to recognize this essential nature thingy? There are countless phenomena appearing to you everyday. Sensory perceptions, thoughts, emotions, subtle energies etc.. Your most esential nature is your own awareness, not the objects, movements, thoughts, emotions, or energies that you are aware of. Turn your attention to your own awareness, peel back every layer of what appears in awareness until there is only awareness itself, and hold your attention upon it...this is your essential nature.
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Post by quinn on Nov 7, 2013 12:33:57 GMT -5
Yes. I have a good friend who's mother died. It was late November on a blustery day pretty far up the coast of Maine. She stripped her clothes off and stood out in the wind and rain on a rocky outcropping for a long time, taking it all in. Folks who incessantly complain of the weather miss the life it is. That's a very powerful image, Max.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 13:10:34 GMT -5
I think that is very useful. There is a dead-end to it, however. What do you do then? What is the nature of that dead end Max? Doubting doubt. That's how it looked on my end. The constant questioning of what the underlying motivation is is useful, as is doubting. But you can only get so far. I thought freejoy's answer was pretty good actually.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 14:22:01 GMT -5
Yes. I have a good friend who's mother died. It was late November on a blustery day pretty far up the coast of Maine. She stripped her clothes off and stood out in the wind and rain on a rocky outcropping for a long time, taking it all in. Folks who incessantly complain of the weather miss the life it is. That's a very powerful image, Max. Well thanks for opening that particular door. I really appreciate your sober style.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 14:34:19 GMT -5
Hmmm....this is interesting...seems like we might have to start with: What is Perception? And What are Perceptions? First there is sensation, then there is perception. Perception is the step immediately after sensation where mind has been applied. A reflex loop is a case where a sensation leads to an action prior to any perception. Perception, at its cleanest, is nothing but a pure transmission of sensation. Perception at its most deluded, distorts sensations into something they are not, perhaps even their opposite. Plato's Allegory of the Cave is looking at this distinction. There is the case where the chained cave-dwellers' perception is heavily distorted. Sounds echo around in conjunction with the wavering patterns of firelight shadows. This is in contrast to the awake position, out of the cave, transcendent of the cavedwelling perspective, a wider range of colors, more precise sound, brighter, more expansive, fresher..... How may one best see? It depends on what one wants to look at. The problem with the forest view is that you can't see the web of branches looking up from the ground. You can't see how a single tree has healed itself from a lightning strike.
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Post by silver on Nov 7, 2013 14:38:44 GMT -5
Could you briefly (?) describe how to recognize this essential nature thingy? There are countless phenomena appearing to you everyday. Sensory perceptions, thoughts, emotions, subtle energies etc.. Your most essential nature is your own awareness, not the objects, movements, thoughts, emotions, or energies that you are aware of. Turn your attention to your own awareness, peel back every layer of what appears in awareness until there is only awareness itself, and hold your attention upon it...this is your essential nature. Ok. The thing is, and the way I see your explanation is that with our minds, we 'turn our attention to' this awareness - this essential nature thingy. Therefore, for me, it seems this 'awareness'/essential nature must have some sort of connection to our minds. Since I believe I've had an experience seeing this essential nature, it fascinates me no end, to find out/figure the mystery of what I call our souls or our spirits, which is what I think this essential nature thing actually is, but not sure.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 14:51:55 GMT -5
There are countless phenomena appearing to you everyday. Sensory perceptions, thoughts, emotions, subtle energies etc.. Your most essential nature is your own awareness, not the objects, movements, thoughts, emotions, or energies that you are aware of. Turn your attention to your own awareness, peel back every layer of what appears in awareness until there is only awareness itself, and hold your attention upon it...this is your essential nature. Ok. The thing is, and the way I see your explanation is that with our minds, we 'turn our attention to' this awareness - this essential nature thingy. Therefore, for me, it seems this 'awareness'/essential nature must have some sort of connection to our minds. Since I believe I've had an experience seeing this essential nature, it fascinates me no end, to find out/figure the mystery of what I call our souls or our spirits, which is what I think this essential nature thing actually is, but not sure. Of course your essential nature has a connection to mind....your essential nature is the source of mind, mind is an extension of essential nature, the means by which essential nature knows itself. By turning attention back onto your own awareness, you are looking directly in the mirror, at the purest reflection of yourself....you are always looking at yourself in EVERYTHING that you give attention to, but all other reflections besides your awareness are impure, and through that impurity the variations of appearances in this sphere of changing appearances occur...but in looking at your own naked unadorned awareness, you see the pure reflection of your changeless self, your most essential nature.
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Post by silver on Nov 7, 2013 14:54:31 GMT -5
Ok. The thing is, and the way I see your explanation is that with our minds, we 'turn our attention to' this awareness - this essential nature thingy. Therefore, for me, it seems this 'awareness'/essential nature must have some sort of connection to our minds. Since I believe I've had an experience seeing this essential nature, it fascinates me no end, to find out/figure the mystery of what I call our souls or our spirits, which is what I think this essential nature thing actually is, but not sure. Of course your essential nature has a connection to mind....your essential nature is the source of mind, mind is an extension of essential nature, the means by which essential nature knows itself. By turning attention back onto your own awareness, you are looking directly in the mirror, at the purest reflection of yourself....you are always looking at yourself in EVERYTHING that you give attention to, but all other reflections besides your awareness are impure, and through that impurity the variations of appearances in this sphere of changing appearances occur...but in looking at your own naked unadorned awareness, you see the pure reflection of your changeless self, your most essential nature. Okay, cool....Do you believe that it is the same thing as our spirit / soul?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 15:09:46 GMT -5
Of course your essential nature has a connection to mind....your essential nature is the source of mind, mind is an extension of essential nature, the means by which essential nature knows itself. By turning attention back onto your own awareness, you are looking directly in the mirror, at the purest reflection of yourself....you are always looking at yourself in EVERYTHING that you give attention to, but all other reflections besides your awareness are impure, and through that impurity the variations of appearances in this sphere of changing appearances occur...but in looking at your own naked unadorned awareness, you see the pure reflection of your changeless self, your most essential nature. Okay, cool....Do you believe that it is the same thing as our spirit / soul? The soul is the movement of 'I am' prior to the 'I am' forming an identity....The 'I am' creates identities, sheds them, and creates new identities...but they are never completely new identities from lifetime to lifetime, as the 'new' identity is in part formed from the karmic trajectory of the previous identity. But while the 'I am'...the soul from which identity flows, can seem like essential nature because it is itself empty of identity and form, it is not essential nature....the 'I am', or the soul, blossoms forth from essential nature, which I call God, but is nothing other than naked awareness. Thus...'you', in your totality, are nothing other than God expressing a Soul that is expressing an Identity.
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Post by silver on Nov 7, 2013 15:32:40 GMT -5
Okay, cool....Do you believe that it is the same thing as our spirit / soul? The soul is the movement of 'I am' prior to the 'I am' forming an identity....The 'I am' creates identities, sheds them, and creates new identities...but they are never completely new identities from lifetime to lifetime, as the 'new' identity is in part formed from the karmic trajectory of the previous identity. But while the 'I am'...the soul from which identity flows, can seem like essential nature because it is itself empty of identity and form, it is not essential nature....the 'I am', or the soul, blossoms forth from essential nature, which I call God, but is nothing other than naked awareness. Thus...'you', in your totality, are nothing other than God expressing a Soul that is expressing an Identity. Ooh. That didn't help me any, steve. *sigh* Somewhere, very recently you said something about going from 'I am' to 'I am _______.' Did that mean the blank signifies that we become 'infinite' - and does it mean that realization or enlightenment is followed by our seeing through that we already are infinite? I hope that makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 15:48:29 GMT -5
The soul is the movement of 'I am' prior to the 'I am' forming an identity....The 'I am' creates identities, sheds them, and creates new identities...but they are never completely new identities from lifetime to lifetime, as the 'new' identity is in part formed from the karmic trajectory of the previous identity. But while the 'I am'...the soul from which identity flows, can seem like essential nature because it is itself empty of identity and form, it is not essential nature....the 'I am', or the soul, blossoms forth from essential nature, which I call God, but is nothing other than naked awareness. Thus...'you', in your totality, are nothing other than God expressing a Soul that is expressing an Identity. Ooh. That didn't help me any, steve. *sigh* Somewhere, very recently you said something about going from 'I am' to 'I am _______.' Did that mean the blank signifies that we become 'infinite' - and does it mean that realization or enlightenment is followed by our seeing through that we already are infinite? I hope that makes sense. Hi Silver...when I said that the 'I am' moves into 'I am_________." The _______ was not a surrogate for the infinite, its a surrogate for the body/mind/identity. However, that latter part is correct, in that enlightenment IS a seeing through that we already are infinite. :-) One might say that the body/mind comes to know its infinite nature, the 'I am' experiences it, and God IS it. Being in full and open consciousness of knowing, experiencing, and Being, is the full integration of our complete nature.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 17:20:24 GMT -5
Ooh. That didn't help me any, steve. *sigh* Somewhere, very recently you said something about going from 'I am' to 'I am _______.' Did that mean the blank signifies that we become 'infinite' - and does it mean that realization or enlightenment is followed by our seeing through that we already are infinite? I hope that makes sense. Hi Silver...when I said that the 'I am' moves into 'I am_________." The _______ was not a surrogate for the infinite, its a surrogate for the body/mind/identity. However, that latter part is correct, in that enlightenment IS a seeing through that we already are infinite. :-) One might say that the body/mind comes to know its infinite nature, the 'I am' experiences it, and God IS it. Being in full and open consciousness of knowing, experiencing, and Being, is the full integration of our complete nature. Actually when the illusion of me, I or self, suddenly collapses, the idea of "Being in full and open consciousness of knowing, experiencing, and Being, is the full integration of our complete nature." collapses with it... What remains IS just what IS.
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Post by silence on Nov 7, 2013 17:33:26 GMT -5
I agree with Andrew on this, (I think - assuming I'm understanding Andrew), that everyone's mental configuration is so complex and unique that how one sees, let alone cleans out, unconsciousness is also unique. Silence (Mr. Keep-it-Simple) always has the good advice of being honest with oneself. To be able to manage that kind of radical honesty, though...well, I think that's an even more difficult-to-answer question. Maybe it comes down to courage. And intent. Being honest about the situation as a whole is the most crucial. Which is to say that if someone can at least admit that they don't want to be honest with themselves about everything, that what's actually true isn't the highest priority, the situation is at least clarified. That those "obstructions" aren't just randomly there. You want them to be there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 9:06:52 GMT -5
Maybe it comes down to courage. And intent. Intent reminds me of Adyashanti's 'spiritual aspiration.' Also I was listening to David Scoma recently and he spoke of investigating the 'motivations underlying the motivations.' Until those are clearly understood, there may be floundering. Well I definitely know floundering. I'd say it's the state of normal. I've looked into the intent/aspiration/motivation thing and nothing clear comes to the fore. Unobstructed seeing. Clearly being what is. Knowing WTF is going on, or not. Truth, with the capital "T" is not something I've ever been comfortable with as part of an aspirational slogan. It's always had a small 't' in my experience, so why would I put faith in it being capitalized? To assume that there is Truth when I've never known this to be the case seems dishonest and slightly self-mesmerizing. Courage I can't really separate from honesty. But honesty gets back to the original question about how one becomes conscious of what is fundamentally unconscious. We can only be honest about what is in the field of consciousness. IOW, we can't really know if we're being actually honest. It's similar to Enigma's 'willingness' idea. "Willingness" is always a description after the fact. Either it was there or it wasn't. Willingness can seem like the case but the proof is in the pudding. It could just be more elaborate kabuki theater. The same with honesty.
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Post by quinn on Nov 8, 2013 10:45:48 GMT -5
Maybe it comes down to courage. And intent. Intent reminds me of Adyashanti's 'spiritual aspiration.' Also I was listening to David Scoma recently and he spoke of investigating the 'motivations underlying the motivations.' Until those are clearly understood, there may be floundering. Well I definitely know floundering. I'd say it's the state of normal. I've looked into the intent/aspiration/motivation thing and nothing clear comes to the fore. Unobstructed seeing. Clearly being what is. Knowing WTF is going on, or not. Truth, with the capital "T" is not something I've ever been comfortable with as part of an aspirational slogan. It's always had a small 't' in my experience, so why would I put faith in it being capitalized? To assume that there is Truth when I've never known this to be the case seems dishonest and slightly self-mesmerizing. Courage I can't really separate from honesty. But honesty gets back to the original question about how one becomes conscious of what is fundamentally unconscious. We can only be honest about what is in the field of consciousness. IOW, we can't really know if we're being actually honest. It's similar to Enigma's 'willingness' idea. "Willingness" is always a description after the fact. Either it was there or it wasn't. Willingness can seem like the case but the proof is in the pudding. It could just be more elaborate kabuki theater. The same with honesty. How is 'WTF is going on' different from 'Truth with a capital T'? Seems the same thing to me. Surely you know WTF is going on sometimes. I've been thinking about courage. Considering the idea that there is no such thing. There are things we're afraid of and then there's whether or not we dive into them. What I've found is that the only time I'm willing to dive in is when the alternative is unacceptable. I wouldn't exactly call that courage. Or even willingness. It's more of just a circumstance. So willingness, honesty and courage are all descriptions after the fact. So...if all that's true, then the original question about uncovering unconsciousness boils down to being in a circumstance where the alternative of lying to oneself is unacceptable.
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