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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 12:31:18 GMT -5
I have no interest in scientific evidence. I'm only interested in what I see for myself when I look at 'what is' with a still mind. You got company -- no need for the mean-bug smiley. That thing is scary. Just right now, a hunch popped up in conceptual awareness. Something like "hey that bug smiley ain't mean." So I focused on my feet, on the HVAC sounds. Clickety click and the mind is still. What is. And here's what popped out after a bit of still mind communing with What Is: "yer right, that bug smiley ain't mean or scary."
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Post by silver on Oct 25, 2013 12:34:32 GMT -5
You got company -- no need for the mean-bug smiley. That thing is scary. Just right now, a hunch popped up in conceptual awareness. Something like "hey that bug smiley ain't mean." So I focused on my feet, on the HVAC sounds. Clickety click and the mind is still. What is. And here's what popped out after a bit of still mind communing with What Is: "yer right, that bug smiley ain't mean or scary." Let's just say I have my preferences. Besides, they aren't called emoticons for nothing.
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Post by enigma on Oct 25, 2013 12:38:06 GMT -5
I have no interest in scientific evidence. I'm only interested in what I see for myself when I look at 'what is' with a still mind. You got company -- no need for the mean-bug smiley. That thing is scary. I included it because I know that Tzu could never believe it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 12:51:28 GMT -5
Lol....well, believe it or not, it was my job for about ten years ;-) and it wasn't a single research project, it was about 1000 professional engagements as an analyst ;-) It was your job to try to understand what they want in business and help them get it, which really has nothing to do with how attitude and suffering relate to enlightenment. Nah on several counts there my friend...it was me conducting those interviews ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 12:53:39 GMT -5
You got company -- no need for the mean-bug smiley. That thing is scary. I included it because I know that Tzu could never believe it. Yes clearly you're just playing with word games to seduce naive innocents into nondual belief land so that you'll have more 'Oneness' bots with which to be irresponsible. It's not hard to see your strategy when clickety click still minding. It's the Nondual Agenda.
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Post by enigma on Oct 25, 2013 18:32:13 GMT -5
It was your job to try to understand what they want in business and help them get it, which really has nothing to do with how attitude and suffering relate to enlightenment. Nah on several counts there my friend...it was me conducting those interviews ;-) ....I know it was. I was left with the impression that you were interviewing them about their spiritual journey. Really not so much....really.
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Post by enigma on Oct 25, 2013 18:35:05 GMT -5
I included it because I know that Tzu could never believe it. Yes clearly you're just playing with word games to seduce naive innocents into nondual belief land so that you'll have more 'Oneness' bots with which to be irresponsible. It's not hard to see your strategy when clickety click still minding. It's the Nondual Agenda.
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Post by silence on Oct 25, 2013 20:43:59 GMT -5
You're playing word games. I'm saying people with a "negative" outlook see things that way because of the beliefs they hold. They also can not decide to believe the opposite because someone tells them it will help them. Do some experimenting, and see if that is true or not.... But a little advice... Go into the experimentation with a positive outlook that consciously changing beliefs IS possible. The whole point IS to see if something is true. That's the precise reason why you can't just up and decide to change your beliefs on a whim. You believe what you believe until you see that it's not true. You don't sit down and say to yourself, "oh, today I'll believe the world is a great positive place". You already know you're full of $hit before you even finish the thought.
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Post by silence on Oct 25, 2013 20:45:30 GMT -5
You're playing word games. I'm saying people with a "negative" outlook see things that way because of the beliefs they hold. They also can not decide to believe the opposite because someone tells them it will help them. It's not that they can't seemingly choose an opposite belief to the negative belief that they hold. The problem is in the belief that they have a choice to be separate from God in the first place, which they don't. The only way to heal that problem is to decide that there is nothing to decide. It's all been given to us through God's decision, his will, and it can't be undone by deciding that you can be separate. Why do I feel like I'm responding to regurgitated text?
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Post by enigma on Oct 25, 2013 21:41:06 GMT -5
Do some experimenting, and see if that is true or not.... But a little advice... Go into the experimentation with a positive outlook that consciously changing beliefs IS possible. The whole point IS to see if something is true. That's the precise reason why you can't just up and decide to change your beliefs on a whim. You believe what you believe until you see that it's not true. You don't sit down and say to yourself, "oh, today I'll believe the world is a great positive place". You already know you're full of $hit before you even finish the thought. I'm enjoying that clarity. It's strange to talk about choosing beliefs. I can't figure out if folks actually believe they can do that.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 26, 2013 4:56:33 GMT -5
If we are talking in the context of awakening/enlightenment/realization then the mental outlook doesn't matter at all. If we are talking about personal growth then the outlook is extremely important, of course. (LOA). And I agree, if there's a path, it should be joyful. Suffering yourself into bliss sounds absurd. But ... is there a path?To that last bit, Niz and others have talked about what they called the Way of the Bird, and the Way of the Ant.....for the Way of the Ant, there is a path, a sure and steady and reliable one. The Way of the Bird needs no "path" and happens suddenly, though it does seem that placing the fruit in the sun so to speak may be of use. For obvious reasons in our consumer I want it Right Now society, the Way of the Ant is set aside, even shunned, despite its almost guaranteed "results". The Way of the Bird is much more loved, despite the fact that it seems so hit or miss. To the first bit....agreed for the most part, but even in the spiritual awakening field (which is very closely connected to LOA) its hard for anything to happen when one is closed off in negativity, because an aspect of negativity is strong attachments and clung to beliefs. Even Gautama, who by all accounts was in a pretty negative frame of mind under that Bodhi Tree, had to let go of everything, including the negativity for realization. But again, I don 't want to over emphasize a positive outlook with regards to realization...and I certainly don't want anyone developing attachments...but a positive attitude rarely hurts or hinders, while a negative outlook very often does. There are as many 'paths' as there are experiencers. A path only shows up in hindsight anyway. It's a mental construct.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 26, 2013 4:59:37 GMT -5
Tell that to Eckhart Tolle! Very few people allow themselves to hit that kind of rock bottom where you surrender utterly everything. 'Hitting rock bottom' is optional. It's unnecessary. There's no virtue in deliberate suffering.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 26, 2013 5:00:42 GMT -5
I'd say the natural state can comes across as positive because that's what everyone is naturally drawn to. Check this out: content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2074067,00.html the brain is hardwired for positivity and optimism...its a survival thing....its called optimism bias. we are wired so that the "natural state" is generally positive, even irrationally so. The brain is just the control center of the body, a switchboard so to speak.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 26, 2013 5:01:39 GMT -5
The importance of a positive mental outlook. The presence of an overriding negative mental outlook blinds one to many possibilities of discovery and awakening. There is a reason that throughout antiquity gurus have said to make this path a serious GAME...
This path should be one of earnestness AND enjoyment in the unfolding of this ever present moment.
Joy and positivity are open and spacious feeling for a reason...because they ARE open and spacious, and allow for light to come in. On the other side of the coin, negativity, bitterness, and capriciousness feel closed and shut off for a reason....because they are a closing off and shutting out of the light so to speak. And the more one clings to a negative outlook, the more they shut out. Embrace joy and a positive spirit of discovery and adventure and awakening on this path, without "clinging" or developing an attachment to to any of it :-) Don't you think everybody would 'embrace joy' if they could? They can't, so they won't.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 26, 2013 5:07:25 GMT -5
There is a difference between pleasure, and Joy or Bliss. Pleasure is always passing, always a swing of the pendalum from pleasure to pain Pleasure is always balanced by pain, its the natural order. But joy, bliss, contentment, these things can keep building and building with no requisit swing to the dark side so to speak.A meaningless sexual encounter with a sexy somebody, over indulgence in rich foods, and evening of drunken debauchery, defeating a perceived enemy, all these things bring pleasure and pain. Freedom from attachments, realizations that let go of cling to beliefs, the joy of charity and kindness, opening to the ever present Grace of God, all these things and others like them bring joy and bliss, with no acompanying swing to pain. I guess it depends on eggzacly what one means by that, but in general I say no. Lots of meditators experience bliss, and then lose it, and it pretty much dualistically sucks. Joy is typically defined as the dualistic opposite to sorrow. If you were to refer the Peace that passeth all understandingeth, I would agree. I'd say there are some misconceptions around the term 'bliss' in the seeker's mind.
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