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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 10:49:17 GMT -5
Of course by "willingness to drop all mental/emotional barriers of separation" you really mean the death of the small mind, or the death of the Ego, or the death of the personal, death, death, death... It's not about 'death, death, death' at all. Where do you come up with this capricious stuff? If you were in prison, chained up 24 hours a day, whipped constantly and deprived of any comfort, then one day someone enters the place and pays your ransom, according to your abrogation you would relate to the sudden change in your circumstances as the death of your 'life' in prison. But someone else, who is a little more fertile and positive will see with a little more clarity - your prison 'death' means you are now 'free' - provided you've gained sufficient lucidity along the way to appreciate and enjoy it. Sure, I can see that... Death, death, death, was meant to contextually elucidate one of the foundational beliefs within the thought system of Perception... Compare that to the other system of thought called Knowledge, which is eternal, was never born and can never die. In your perception the person in prison has the choice to align with the thought system of Knowledge, what I call real, or the thought system which is a dream, a perception, or the unreal...
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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2013 10:55:07 GMT -5
Yes. Love moves when there is nothing seemingly in it's way. The person does not need to do something. If there is the willingness to drop all mental/emotional barriers of separation, Love will be seen for what it is. It moves of it's own accord and in it's own name. Love 'moves' whether or not there is something in the way. The fact that we may lack appreciation of this reality is not a statement against love, but against our dysfunctional perception. So it is something in the way of our appreciation that (on every occasion) prevents us from seeing reality. If something moves in the woods and there's nobody around to notice it, does it really move?
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 10:58:33 GMT -5
This topic seems to have come at a time when all the sediment is stirred up in me -- thanks!
After such a long time of processing the stuff I went through so early in my life and coming to this stage in my life (semi-old), losing a son in recent years and yadda yadda, I realized the mixed feelings I've recently developed about 'forgiveness' and such. Thing is, I've had mixed feelings all along and just didn't realize it!
When I consider having grown up in the Episcopal church (Sunday school every week up until h.s. graduation, they do seem to try to indoctrinate 'all that' but the kitchen sink -- forgiveness and all, it just don't make no sense to me, for the most vulnerable buying into that sickening merry-go-round of forgiving the incorrigible recidivists. Bah! It truly is a social conditioning, this forgiveness stuff -- works great for those who believe, as W. C. Fields did, that there is a sucker born every minute. See, that’s the part that obviously doesn't pan out at all.
I've never heard anybody explain that away in my entire life. In the Christian culture, the weak and the vulnerable have that yoke put upon them and gosh, I'm sorry, but I'm not finding that yoke to be fashionable in the least -- just like high heels -- sooner or later, they'll damage your feet.
Now, I realize some here may be talking in more fanciful, airy-fairy terms, but I honestly can't tell. I just want some honesty from those who choose to share what they believe and how they really feel about 'forgiveness' etc.
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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2013 10:58:35 GMT -5
Well, it's a bit less dramatic than all that. Indeed it isn't. 'Death' is an exceptionally pessimistic and redundant view of - LIFE! To only see the dead-end of the perception we've labeled 'death', one misses the unrestricted, eternal, universal expanse that opens up upon 'death'. And all that is a whole lot more 'dramatic' than anyone focused upon 'death' can possibly imagine. I don't think TRF was talking about physical death.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 10:59:23 GMT -5
There are two kinds of Love...Big Mind Love or God's Love, or Impersonal Love, etc, etc,... Then there is the Small Mind Love, or the Ego's Love, or Personal Love, etc, etc,... From the second group we seek from others what we feel is 'lacking' in ourselves, IOW we 'Love' others in an attempt to get 'Love' for ourselves... From the first group 'Love' is incapable of asking for anything because 'Love' is all there is... Love never tries to "get". By " personal" I mean if one sees another hungery it will feed them. If it sees them cold it will warm them. It heals. Love is felt in the body, the heart. Love wants to remove pain. If one doesn't love the ego then how is it healed. Listening is a form of love. Attention is a form of love. Plants grow better with it. So it a ego is speaking should we in general listen and give our attention? Then the ego heals some. I'm not talking about "seeking" love. "Personal" love means feeding someone who is hungry or clothing someone who is cold to get something in return. Like self esteem, or confidence, or pride, or some other sense that enhances the reality of the personal, the person. If that is the love you experience then it most certainly can be healed...
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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2013 11:17:05 GMT -5
There's no problem acting or interacting from an impersonal perspective. It does not deny the mind/body, the individuated expression and it's needs. It honors all expressions as it's own. I would expect you to embrace the impersonal as the personal is the source of all selfishness, greed and cruelty. Personal love is conditional on you fulfilling my personal needs, and why should you? It's very simple. It isn't about needs. But if you see a need you will want to fill it if it's within your power. Loving people will most likely make you go broke. Like water you'll most likely end up in the lowest place within your context. Sounds like it's about needs for you.
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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2013 11:23:51 GMT -5
Yes. Love moves when there is nothing seemingly in it's way. The person does not need to do something. If there is the willingness to drop all mental/emotional barriers of separation, Love will be seen for what it is. It moves of it's own accord and in it's own name. Forgiveness and love entangle in a sort of dance, one step falling into the next ... forgiveness leading to love, love leading to forgiveness. When the pros move, the dancers, the dancefloor and the music all just sort of melt into the dance ... until, there is noone to do the forgiving and everyone to love, noone to do the loving and everything is forgiven. I see Love and forgiveness as antithetical. Forgiveness implies prior judgment. All this talk about forgiveness is like a FEMA cleanup after a disaster. What's Love... got to do..got to do with it?
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Post by enigma on Oct 14, 2013 11:37:27 GMT -5
This topic seems to have come at a time when all the sediment is stirred up in me -- thanks! After such a long time of processing the stuff I went through so early in my life and coming to this stage in my life (semi-old), losing a son in recent years and yadda yadda, I realized the mixed feelings I've recently developed about 'forgiveness' and such. Thing is, I've had mixed feelings all along and just didn't realize it! When I consider having grown up in the Episcopal church (Sunday school every week up until h.s. graduation, they do seem to try to indoctrinate 'all that' but the kitchen sink -- forgiveness and all, it just don't make no sense to me, for the most vulnerable buying into that sickening merry-go-round of forgiving the incorrigible recidivists. Bah! It truly is a social conditioning, this forgiveness stuff -- works great for those who believe, as W. C. Fields did, that there is a sucker born every minute. See, that’s the part that obviously doesn't pan out at all. I've never heard anybody explain that away in my entire life. In the Christian culture, the weak and the vulnerable have that yoke put upon them and gosh, I'm sorry, but I'm not finding that yoke to be fashionable in the least -- just like high heels -- sooner or later, they'll damage your feet. Now, I realize some here may be talking in more fanciful, airy-fairy terms, but I honestly can't tell. I just want some honesty from those who choose to share what they believe and how they really feel about 'forgiveness' etc. Okay, I say forgiveness is a sham, either a self righteous pretense of being better than the one judged or a futile attempt to escape the pain of one's own judgment without learning acceptance. In the same way that acceptance is not a 'doing', nether is forgiveness. The war is waged on the battlefield of judgment. It makes little difference whether one carries the flag of retribution or the flag of forgiveness.
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 12:05:20 GMT -5
This topic seems to have come at a time when all the sediment is stirred up in me -- thanks! After such a long time of processing the stuff I went through so early in my life and coming to this stage in my life (semi-old), losing a son in recent years and yadda yadda, I realized the mixed feelings I've recently developed about 'forgiveness' and such. Thing is, I've had mixed feelings all along and just didn't realize it! When I consider having grown up in the Episcopal church (Sunday school every week up until h.s. graduation, they do seem to try to indoctrinate 'all that' but the kitchen sink -- forgiveness and all, it just don't make no sense to me, for the most vulnerable buying into that sickening merry-go-round of forgiving the incorrigible recidivists. Bah! It truly is a social conditioning, this forgiveness stuff -- works great for those who believe, as W. C. Fields did, that there is a sucker born every minute. See, that’s the part that obviously doesn't pan out at all. I've never heard anybody explain that away in my entire life. In the Christian culture, the weak and the vulnerable have that yoke put upon them and gosh, I'm sorry, but I'm not finding that yoke to be fashionable in the least -- just like high heels -- sooner or later, they'll damage your feet. Now, I realize some here may be talking in more fanciful, airy-fairy terms, but I honestly can't tell. I just want some honesty from those who choose to share what they believe and how they really feel about 'forgiveness' etc. Okay, I say forgiveness is a sham, either a self righteous pretense of being better than the one judged or a futile attempt to escape the pain of one's own judgment without learning acceptance. In the same way that acceptance is not a 'doing', nether is forgiveness. The war is waged on the battlefield of judgment. It makes little difference whether one carries the flag of retribution or the flag of forgiveness. Wow, that's similar what I thought when this thread started. And I just didn't realize just how strongly I felt about it until I really started thinking about it. (Even though I don't quite understand the thing about acceptance / doing.)
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 12:41:29 GMT -5
"Personal" love means feeding someone who is hungry or clothing someone who is cold to get something in return. Like self esteem, or confidence, or pride, or some other sense that enhances the reality of the personal, the person. If that is the love you experience then it most certainly can be healed... If a person experiences "pride" or gets some feeling of confidence because they fed someone then they might want to consider letting it go. If they don't fed someone then they might experience guilt. A lot of volunteers get college credits for volunteering. If a mother feeds her child because it makes her feel good about herself, I don't know. As far as "personal" love it seems about the same as loving children. You want the child to be happy. The only difference is one is 5 years old another is 25 years old. Does age make a difference? I don't see where age makes a difference. In general that is. You have the whole context and maybe even God intelligence, maybe ones intuitive. Most people in America aren't starving. I'm not really into politics.
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 12:56:53 GMT -5
Sounds like it's about needs for you. It doesn't exclude filling needs but it's not about filling needs. See greedy people are always looking at everything through cost/benefit paradigms. How can I get out of this the cheapest. I worked hard for this! They are bums who don't work. See, they are making judgments. I wonder why spiritually has to make commercial sense? Some people in spiritual stuff really don't make a lick of sense. One God give certain qualitites that allow him to make money, another one he doesn't. He gave enough to feed both! So, are you saying you agree with the parable about the man who was given x amount of money and invested and another man given x amount and buried it in the ground? Is that what you're talking about here? I'm having a little trouble understanding where you're really coming from.
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 13:17:51 GMT -5
Just curious -- do you mean letting go in not feeding them for the wrong reasons? So you let someone starve or go truly hungry because your attitude isn't 'right'? I just want to be clear. Letting go of feeding them for the wrong reasons. Whether one feeds them for the "wrong" reasons or not they still need fed. Are you saying just because so many have become overweight and downright obese, that people aren't starving here? Recognize that both are serious problems, worthy of consideration. To figure out why is to care and to love, naturally. I already figured out "why" it's greedy enlightened people. It's the "greed trickle down effect" Are you meaning that these greedy enlightened people are defining themselves? I know that I can be quite emo, and speaking while one is at the height of an emo-moment, can be confusing for others who aren't in that state.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Oct 14, 2013 13:32:04 GMT -5
Sounds like it's about needs for you. It doesn't exclude filling needs but it's not about filling needs. See greedy people are always looking at everything through cost/benefit paradigms. How can I get out of this the cheapest. I worked hard for this! They are bums who don't work. See, they are making judgments. I wonder why spiritually has to make commercial sense? Some people in spiritual stuff really don't make a lick of sense. One God give certain qualitites that allow him to make money, another one he doesn't. He gave enough to feed both! I resonate with that, although I would articulate it differently. The big problem with "spirituality" is that it effectively is based on the effort/reward equation. As long as enlightenment is not for free nothing substantial will change in the world because the effort required is simply too much, because people will be ready to pay money for it simply because it is so rare, and this produces greed and charlatans. Why do people have to renounce their ego, work through their unconscious stuff etc before they can become enightened? I want an enlightenment that is completely free and absolutely unconditional. And then there would be no greed about it, nobody would pay money for it, and there would be no charlatans. If there is no such enlightenment in this world then I reject this world and its enlightenment, and I can die peacefully knowing that I stayed true to myself and that I've kept my dignity. Few peope understand this, but dignity is the most important thing.
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 13:45:58 GMT -5
Are you meaning that these greedy enlightened people are defining themselves? I know that I can be quite emo, and speaking while one is at the height of an emo-moment, can be confusing for others who aren't in that state. emo = emotion ? Are you meaning that these greedy enlightened people are defining themselves? I don't know what they are doing. emo-moment? Is that when they see everything is prefect, and everyone is okay? Then leave there children to die? yes emo equals emotion(al). Iow, are you calling them greedy 'enlightened' people yourself or are you speaking for them, as such? emotional moment. No, wasn't saying that.* *I don't think I was -- am not exactly clear on what you're talking about.
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 13:48:02 GMT -5
See, the more they charge the more they cheapen enlightenment. It brings doubt about enlightenment. Is charging money for their enlightenment services the only way the "masters of the universe" know how to make money? I guess you have specific ones in mind, but perhaps it sounded good to them at the time.
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