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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 14:07:53 GMT -5
See, the more they charge the more they cheapen enlightenment. It brings doubt about enlightenment. Is charging money for their enlightenment services the only way the "masters of the universe" know how to make money? That spiritual teachers are in it for the money is a perception that you make true because you are the perceiver of it... But your perception is an interpretation and not actually factual. True teachers are interested in not money, but in your salvation because it is also their salvation... True teachers are essentially teaching you to see the difference between Knowledge and Perception, Truth and Falsity, Big Mind and Little mind, etc, etc,... Once that lesson is understood the teacher has taught himself/herself out of a job.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Oct 14, 2013 14:22:14 GMT -5
See, the more they charge the more they cheapen enlightenment. It brings doubt about enlightenment. Is charging money for their enlightenment services the only way the "masters of the universe" know how to make money? I agree that to put a price on something is to cheapen it. But the problem lies not in the greedy enlightenment teachers. The problem lies in enlightenment itself. Enlightenment is very very difficult to attain (it has a price) and therein lies the root of all evil.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 15:17:50 GMT -5
See, the more they charge the more they cheapen enlightenment. It brings doubt about enlightenment. Is charging money for their enlightenment services the only way the "masters of the universe" know how to make money? I agree that to put a price on something is to cheapen it. But the problem lies not in the greedy enlightenment teachers. The problem lies in enlightenment itself. Enlightenment is very very difficult to attain (it has a price) and therein lies the root of all evil. Hi Q, Where does your fascination with enlightenment come from...why are you interested in it at all?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 15:21:35 GMT -5
That spiritual teachers are in it for the money is a perception that you make true because you are the perceiver of it... I'm just playing a part. I'm very sacrificial in nature. I'm playing a part as if I were a larger mass of people. Personally I don't think enlightened people are greedy. They just know how to use their money. I trust their ability to manage money. I'm just putting in a word for my brothers.
But your perception is an interpretation and not actually factual. YeahTrue teachers are interested in not money, but in your salvation because it is also their salvation... True teachers are essentially teaching you to see the difference between Knowledge and Perception, Truth and Falsity, Big Mind and Little mind, etc, etc,... Once that lesson is understood the teacher has taught himself/herself out of a job. :-)
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Post by laughter on Oct 14, 2013 16:07:55 GMT -5
Forgiveness and love entangle in a sort of dance, one step falling into the next ... forgiveness leading to love, love leading to forgiveness. When the pros move, the dancers, the dancefloor and the music all just sort of melt into the dance ... until, there is noone to do the forgiving and everyone to love, noone to do the loving and everything is forgiven. I see Love and forgiveness as antithetical. Forgiveness implies prior judgment. All this talk about forgiveness is like a FEMA cleanup after a disaster. What's Love... got to do..got to do with it? Well in terms of unconditional love there's never anything to forgive -- my guess is that this is what you're driving at. What I'm suggesting is that unconditional forgiveness given or received by a person can give them a hint of that.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Oct 14, 2013 16:17:58 GMT -5
Hi Q, Where does your fascination with enlightenment come from...why are you interested in it at all? It's not a fascination, and also not a desire for unusual experiences or skills. Life is hell, everything in it is crooked, all beings and things, the older I get, the clearer this is. I don't know what it means for others, but for me enlightenment means a way to escape this nightmare. I don't know if that's possible, but it's what I want.
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Post by laughter on Oct 14, 2013 16:28:51 GMT -5
This topic seems to have come at a time when all the sediment is stirred up in me -- thanks! After such a long time of processing the stuff I went through so early in my life and coming to this stage in my life (semi-old), losing a son in recent years and yadda yadda, I realized the mixed feelings I've recently developed about 'forgiveness' and such. Thing is, I've had mixed feelings all along and just didn't realize it! When I consider having grown up in the Episcopal church (Sunday school every week up until h.s. graduation, they do seem to try to indoctrinate 'all that' but the kitchen sink -- forgiveness and all, it just don't make no sense to me, for the most vulnerable buying into that sickening merry-go-round of forgiving the incorrigible recidivists. Bah! It truly is a social conditioning, this forgiveness stuff -- works great for those who believe, as W. C. Fields did, that there is a sucker born every minute. See, that’s the part that obviously doesn't pan out at all. I've never heard anybody explain that away in my entire life. In the Christian culture, the weak and the vulnerable have that yoke put upon them and gosh, I'm sorry, but I'm not finding that yoke to be fashionable in the least -- just like high heels -- sooner or later, they'll damage your feet. Now, I realize some here may be talking in more fanciful, airy-fairy terms, but I honestly can't tell. I just want some honesty from those who choose to share what they believe and how they really feel about 'forgiveness' etc. ... ...
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 16:43:45 GMT -5
This topic seems to have come at a time when all the sediment is stirred up in me -- thanks! After such a long time of processing the stuff I went through so early in my life and coming to this stage in my life (semi-old), losing a son in recent years and yadda yadda, I realized the mixed feelings I've recently developed about 'forgiveness' and such. Thing is, I've had mixed feelings all along and just didn't realize it! When I consider having grown up in the Episcopal church (Sunday school every week up until h.s. graduation, they do seem to try to indoctrinate 'all that' but the kitchen sink -- forgiveness and all, it just don't make no sense to me, for the most vulnerable buying into that sickening merry-go-round of forgiving the incorrigible recidivists. Bah! It truly is a social conditioning, this forgiveness stuff -- works great for those who believe, as W. C. Fields did, that there is a sucker born every minute. See, that’s the part that obviously doesn't pan out at all. I've never heard anybody explain that away in my entire life. In the Christian culture, the weak and the vulnerable have that yoke put upon them and gosh, I'm sorry, but I'm not finding that yoke to be fashionable in the least -- just like high heels -- sooner or later, they'll damage your feet. Now, I realize some here may be talking in more fanciful, airy-fairy terms, but I honestly can't tell. I just want some honesty from those who choose to share what they believe and how they really feel about 'forgiveness' etc. ... ...But Bill, you lead a sheltered life -- without a whole lotta need for anyone's forgiveness and probly vice versa! And I was sort of stunned when the frog said he felt it was a sham, because I do, too. It goes along with the fact that neither one of us believe in unconditional love - circumstantial love, maybe, heh. I don't think that makes the frog - or man stiff and dead-like. whatever that link said. Or women, either.
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Post by laughter on Oct 14, 2013 17:13:57 GMT -5
But Bill, you lead a sheltered life -- without a whole lotta need for anyone's forgiveness and probly vice versa! ... what?? ... And I was sort of stunned when the frog said he felt it was a sham, because I do, too. It goes along with the fact that neither one of us believe in unconditional love - circumstantial love, maybe, heh. I don't think that makes the frog - or man stiff and dead-like. whatever that link said. Or women, either. E's objections to forgiveness are not the same as yours. To him it is a doing, a personal affair. He's got a point, but I see a different angle on it. Your objection seems to be that anyone offering it is being taken advantage of.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 17:14:16 GMT -5
I see Love and forgiveness as antithetical. Forgiveness implies prior judgment. All this talk about forgiveness is like a FEMA cleanup after a disaster. What's Love... got to do..got to do with it? Well in terms of unconditional love there's never anything to forgive -- my guess is that this is what you're driving at. What I'm suggesting is that unconditional forgiveness given or received by a person can give them a hint of that. Forgiveness is one of those ideas who's truth lay in the mind of the perciever who has projected it's internal beliefs onto the world. Forgiveness is the key to happiness there is no doubt, but not if it isn't inherent in the small mind, the personal mind, the Ego mind, that doesn't believe in a relationship with the Big Mind, Impersonal Mind, or the mind of God... IOW, the 'unforgiving' mind doesn't know how to forgive it hasn't learned it yet...
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Post by laughter on Oct 14, 2013 17:19:29 GMT -5
Well in terms of unconditional love there's never anything to forgive -- my guess is that this is what you're driving at. What I'm suggesting is that unconditional forgiveness given or received by a person can give them a hint of that. Forgiveness is one of those ideas who's truth lay in the mind of the perciever who has projected it's internal beliefs onto the world. Forgiveness is the key to happiness there is no doubt, but not if it isn't inherent in the small mind, the personal mind, the Ego mind, that doesn't believe in a relationship with the Big Mind, Impersonal Mind, or the mind of God... IOW, the 'unforgiving' mind doesn't know how to forgive it hasn't learned it yet... It's a tricky idea, that's for sure ... I'm down with most of what you've written about it in the thread so far... as with any sort of an idea such as this one, the potential for TM Tea is there, but in this case, it's a risk I'm willin' to take, at least to some extent ...
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 17:28:42 GMT -5
But Bill, you lead a sheltered life -- without a whole lotta need for anyone's forgiveness and probly vice versa! ... what?? ... And I was sort of stunned when the frog said he felt it was a sham, because I do, too. It goes along with the fact that neither one of us believe in unconditional love - circumstantial love, maybe, heh. I don't think that makes the frog - or man stiff and dead-like. whatever that link said. Or women, either. E's objections to forgiveness are not the same as yours. To him it is a doing, a personal affair. He's got a point, but I see a different angle on it. Your objection seems to be that anyone offering it is being taken advantage of. You're right, in that I'm making a vast assumption, but just from what I've picked up that's for me, a reasonable one. Um, sorry? I think that 'anyone' offering an apology or forgiveness - it's too easy to succumb to all that is human / psychology -- expectations - promises - good intentions -- it's just not something I'd bet on to turn out reasonably well in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 18:03:18 GMT -5
Forgiveness is one of those ideas who's truth lay in the mind of the perciever who has projected it's internal beliefs onto the world. Forgiveness is the key to happiness there is no doubt, but not if it isn't inherent in the small mind, the personal mind, the Ego mind, that doesn't believe in a relationship with the Big Mind, Impersonal Mind, or the mind of God... IOW, the 'unforgiving' mind doesn't know how to forgive it hasn't learned it yet... It's a tricky idea, that's for sure ... I'm down with most of what you've written about it in the thread so far... as with any sort of an idea such as this one, the potential for TM Tea is there, but in this case, it's a risk I'm willin' to take, at least to some extent ... Yeah, it's not the normally conceived of idea relating to the forgiveness of someone or something external to ourselves... It's more of a healing of the unforgiving mind that taught itself how to separate itself from the Big Mind, Impersonal Mind, or Mind of God and now must learn how to forgive or unlearn that teaching...
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Post by silver on Oct 14, 2013 18:10:45 GMT -5
With the conversations to be had amongst the woo woo crowd -- it greatly oversimplifies a particular type of situation / scenario and from where I'm standing, it just seems contrived and creates certain unrealistic expectations.
The deals that need to be hammered out are left in the wake of this notion of forgiveness. It's like putting a band aid on a gaping wound in the most important instances.
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Post by silence on Oct 14, 2013 19:16:46 GMT -5
Forgiveness for most is a selfish measure aimed at ending a particular feeling. Perhaps anger, perhaps sadness and even guilt for feeling angry. True forgiveness is instantaneous and it is the end of finding someone or something to blame. There's no practicing it or need to practice it.
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