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Post by nowhereman on Oct 7, 2013 22:10:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. A student asks Papaji, 'How do I see God'? Hang in til the end. That was classic guru woo woo... just agree with guru and you will see 'God'.. because if you agree with guru you will believe you see 'God'.. in this case, the 'student' says, "I don't see God", and guru says, the word "don't is doubt, remove 'doubt' ("don't") and tell me what you see.. (spoiler alert, word-play).. the student repeats the sentence without the word "don't", and says "I see God"... and that IS funny.. no pressure in THAT room, eh? Clarity needs none of that illusion, none of that Eastern Hippie Theater.. there's no 'God' to see, other than the illusion your were conditioned to see.. Be well.. It's not possible to have a accurate look at what is happening in this video just by watching it. I assume you never met Papaji nor know much of his history. Papaji was a Shaktipat guru much like Muktaananda with the Ramana difference. What is going on in this video is a outflow of Shakti energy infused into the crowd. In truth on that day they all saw God in the form of Shakti.
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Post by enigma on Oct 7, 2013 22:30:52 GMT -5
I think you're in a "state of denial" about it not being personally directed toward you. If it wasn't, then it was a completely irrelevant comment. The comment was relevant to a possible assumption that Steve could had made. It's called being courteous . However I do understand well where you are coming from as you tend to take everything personal hence your comment here What possible assumption?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 22:33:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. That was classic guru woo woo... just agree with guru and you will see 'God'.. because if you agree with guru you will believe you see 'God'.. in this case, the 'student' says, "I don't see God", and guru says, the word "don't is doubt, remove 'doubt' ("don't") and tell me what you see.. (spoiler alert, word-play).. the student repeats the sentence without the word "don't", and says "I see God"... and that IS funny.. no pressure in THAT room, eh? Clarity needs none of that illusion, none of that Eastern Hippie Theater.. there's no 'God' to see, other than the illusion your were conditioned to see.. Be well.. It's not possible to have a accurate look at what is happening in this video just by watching it. I assume you never met Papaji nor know much of his history. Papaji was a Shaktipat guru much like Muktaananda with the Ramana difference. What is going on in this video is a outflow of Shakti energy infused into the crowd. In truth on that day they all saw God in the form of Shakti. I dunno enough of the vocabulary of shakti yoga to agree or not, plus, I was not there....but on a more simple level, I disagree with Tzu and in my experience its just as simple as the fellow made it for himself (with some help from Papaji)....all one has to do is let go of preconditioned ideas about God, and let go of doubt, and just look, and God is RIGHT HERE, everywhere, plain as day. Doubt plays a key role though...doubt is something formed and clung to, its not the natural state, its a kind of clinching really....if one un-clinches doubt and lets it go regarding God, and dumps all the western judeo-christion-greek mythology iconography of God, God is obvious. observe doubt closely, by holding onto it and letting it go....doubt is an overly, an artiface of the mind that clouds to view of the obvious, and can be let go of at any time....Papaji gave him a nudge to let ot go, but really the fellow did it himself, as anyone can....if you let go of doubt and oreconcieved ideas about God, and then look for God right in front of you, or even within you, God becomes as obvious as the nose on your face :-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 22:47:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. A student asks Papaji, 'How do I see God'? Hang in til the end. That was classic guru woo woo... just agree with guru and you will see 'God'.. because if you agree with guru you will believe you see 'God'.. in this case, the 'student' says, "I don't see God", and guru says, the word "don't is doubt, remove 'doubt' ("don't") and tell me what you see.. (spoiler alert, word-play).. the student repeats the sentence without the word "don't", and says "I see God"... and that IS funny.. no pressure in THAT room, eh? Clarity needs none of that illusion, none of that Eastern Hippie Theater.. there's no 'God' to see, other than the illusion your were conditioned to see.. Be well.. Nah....Papaji just got the fellow to unclinch the clinging to doubt and to drop his mosconcieved socially impronted ideas about God....when you do so....it's so remarkably easy to see God that you are amazed at the simplicity of how easy it is, and the sillyness of silly it was to "block" God out. As an exoeriment Tzu...why don't you try the thing in the OP, but do so without any of these preconcieved ideas or socially implanted conceptions of God, and just be open and try it. the three minutes it will take of being open and just looking and trying it won't kill ya, you got nothing to loose ;-) its not woo woo what papaji did, nor was what the fellow did woo woo....it was just a momentary dropping of psychological blocks and overlays...and just dropping those for a moment and looking for God, i.e. tirning attention to God is enough to see God very easily and plainly.
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Post by silver on Oct 7, 2013 22:47:38 GMT -5
It's not possible to have a accurate look at what is happening in this video just by watching it. I assume you never met Papaji nor know much of his history. Papaji was a Shaktipat guru much like Muktaananda with the Ramana difference. What is going on in this video is a outflow of Shakti energy infused into the crowd. In truth on that day they all saw God in the form of Shakti. I dunno enough of the vocabulary of shakti yoga to agree or not, plus, I was not there....but on a more simple level, I disagree with Tzu and in my exlerience its just as simple as the fellow made it for himself (with some help from Papaji)....all one has to do is let go of preconditioned ideas about God, and ket go of doubt, and just look, and God is RIGHT HERE, everywhere, plain as day. Doubt plays a key role though...doubt is something formed and clung to, its not the natural state, its a kind of clinching really....if one un-clinches doubt and lets it go regarding God, amd dumps all the western judeo-christion-greek mythology iconography of God, God is obvious. observe doubt closely, by holding onto it and letting it go....doubt is an overly, an artiface of the mind that clouds to view of the obvious :-) What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 22:55:01 GMT -5
I dunno enough of the vocabulary of shakti yoga to agree or not, plus, I was not there....but on a more simple level, I disagree with Tzu and in my exlerience its just as simple as the fellow made it for himself (with some help from Papaji)....all one has to do is let go of preconditioned ideas about God, and ket go of doubt, and just look, and God is RIGHT HERE, everywhere, plain as day. Doubt plays a key role though...doubt is something formed and clung to, its not the natural state, its a kind of clinching really....if one un-clinches doubt and lets it go regarding God, amd dumps all the western judeo-christion-greek mythology iconography of God, God is obvious. observe doubt closely, by holding onto it and letting it go....doubt is an overly, an artiface of the mind that clouds to view of the obvious :-) What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt. Stop "suspecting " and see for yourself...do as the fellow did, or do what I have sugested here in this thread....don't "suspect" what might be happening...investigate it by doing it yourself, and gnosis what is happening for your self....only set your ideas aside about what you suspect "may" be happening, and go into the investigation with an open mind ;-) Suppostion will never do....open minded investigation by "doing" is the best way to find out the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 22:57:32 GMT -5
I dunno enough of the vocabulary of shakti yoga to agree or not, plus, I was not there....but on a more simple level, I disagree with Tzu and in my exlerience its just as simple as the fellow made it for himself (with some help from Papaji)....all one has to do is let go of preconditioned ideas about God, and ket go of doubt, and just look, and God is RIGHT HERE, everywhere, plain as day. Doubt plays a key role though...doubt is something formed and clung to, its not the natural state, its a kind of clinching really....if one un-clinches doubt and lets it go regarding God, amd dumps all the western judeo-christion-greek mythology iconography of God, God is obvious. observe doubt closely, by holding onto it and letting it go....doubt is an overly, an artiface of the mind that clouds to view of the obvious :-) What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt. Also, letting doubt go is not the same as doubting doubt lol Why walk yourself into those kind of mental circles?
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 7, 2013 23:22:08 GMT -5
Greetings.. What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt. Stop "suspecting " and see for yourself...do as the fellow did, or do what I have sugested here in this thread....don't "suspect" what might be happening...investigate it by doing it yourself, and gnosis what is happening for your self....only set your ideas aside about what you suspect "may" be happening, and go into the investigation with an open mind ;-) Suppostion will never do....open minded investigation by "doing" is the best way to find out the truth. I have done exactly as you have suggested, and many more journeys into the spiritual ritual.. i come empty to the experience, assuming my brothers and sisters to be accurate in their descriptions, and with openness for such experience to be revealed to me, too.. it is from these many journeys, from many different perspectives, that i 'feel' the more basic fundamental 'happening'.. from the descriptions of different perspectives, i sense the experiences being described to be similar but contrasted by the expectations of the beliefs attached to the various perspectives.. Rather than trying to find ways to fit the experiences into the descriptions, let the descriptions and the beliefs go.. find within your words the meanings apart from beliefs and expectations, find the descriptions of what you experience that the Hindu, and the Jew, and the Buddhist, and the atheist, and the Native American, and all of our brothers and sisters will recognize as the experience they feel, too.. when the description references 'God', or Oneness, or Tao, or Great Spirit, or some other description that someone else might feel uneasy about, find another way, let the conflict go.. it is the attachment to this or that word or phrase that interrupts the fluid connection of people cooperating to find resonance in the feeling of expression.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2013 23:56:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. Stop "suspecting " and see for yourself...do as the fellow did, or do what I have sugested here in this thread....don't "suspect" what might be happening...investigate it by doing it yourself, and gnosis what is happening for your self....only set your ideas aside about what you suspect "may" be happening, and go into the investigation with an open mind ;-) Suppostion will never do....open minded investigation by "doing" is the best way to find out the truth. I have done exactly as you have suggested, and many more journeys into the spiritual ritual.. i come empty to the experience, assuming my brothers and sisters to be accurate in their descriptions, and with openness for such experience to be revealed to me, too.. it is from these many journeys, from many different perspectives, that i 'feel' the more basic fundamental 'happening'.. from the descriptions of different perspectives, i sense the experiences being described to be similar but contrasted by the expectations of the beliefs attached to the various perspectives.. Rather than trying to find ways to fit the experiences into the descriptions, let the descriptions and the beliefs go.. find within your words the meanings apart from beliefs and expectations, find the descriptions of what you experience that the Hindu, and the Jew, and the Buddhist, and the atheist, and the Native American, and all of our brothers and sisters will recognize as the experience they feel, too.. when the description references 'God', or Oneness, or Tao, or Great Spirit, or some other description that someone else might feel uneasy about, find another way, let the conflict go.. it is the attachment to this or that word or phrase that interrupts the fluid connection of people cooperating to find resonance in the feeling of expression.. Be well.. Man, most of that was hard to follow for me, but if I got the just of it then my response is that only folks that are already in a state of rejection of an image of God given to them by society are going to be "put off" by the word "God" in such a way that you describe. And such, a person that is actively rejecting that image of God is not likely to be interested in "seeing" God so to speak. If however, one HAS an interest on finding God in a non-religious personal sense, or seeing God, instead of throwing the whole possibility of God out the window in rejection of the old guy with a white beard sitting in judgement image of God, then what I have written here may help. If it makes you feel any better, when I say that I see God, I am not seeing an idea of God, I'm not even seeing something called God, God is just a word pointing to the experience, just as the word "tree" is just a word pointing to the experience of that thing thats seen outside my window. :-)
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Oct 8, 2013 5:42:02 GMT -5
Becoming truly atheist is not so easy to do. It's not so hard to get rid of the idea of the bearded old man in the sky. But what Lacan calls "the big Other" is much more difficult to get rid of. When we say "one doesn't do it" in response to some despicable act, who is this "one"? It's the "big Other". That's the place where the idea about God comes from and it operates in almost everyone and in every culture regardless of whether it's religious or not. Have you considered that "getting rid" of the awareness or idea of God because its a trick of the mind used to obscure the obvious? Seems like its easy to get rid of the idea of the old man with a silver beard in the sky, because its a fantasy thats not supported by the obviousness of experience. But getting rid of of the idea or belief in a higher power or greater self or whatever you want to call it is exceedingly difficult, because you have to for e the mind to create barriers to the obvious. In such situations its no suprise that every true aethiest is usually very confrontational in their aetheism, and VERY firm in arguing it, because it takes a kind of fierce will and effort to be a true aethiest and continually deny the obviousness of experience. It can be hard work to set aside the cultural imprintation of a God iconography, but its even harder work to deny the obviousness of God in everthing and everyone. Avowed aethiests that hold onto aetheism tend to be a pretty fierce lot regarding aetheism as a result. Are you saying that the "one" in "one doesn't do it" is actually god? It's true that being emotionally invested (angry) in being an atheist is immature and a sign that the process is incomplete. But the notion about atheists being angry in general is not true. These days the archetype of "the atheist" are people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and if at all they are angry then at certain groups of people who do all kinds of evil things in the name of religion. I don't see the neo-atheists ever cursing at god for him being such a bad guy. What the neo-atheists do miss though is precisely this dimension of the "big Other". I can't really blame them because the "big Other" does have a regulating force for every society and person, and it's essentially non-religious. Religion however is an expression of this psychological "big Other" complex and so religion will resurface in some form or another as long as the "big Other" complex is not adressed and continues to be abused. For example the true function of the whole NSA spying scandal is to ingrain a certain image of the "big Other" into the minds of people so that they prohibit themselves from dissenting. The US stasi knows that all the spying doesn't really help them prevent more crimes or terrorism, instead their true goal is that people feel like they are being watched all the time. Sort of like in a panopticon.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 8, 2013 7:44:24 GMT -5
I dunno enough of the vocabulary of shakti yoga to agree or not, plus, I was not there....but on a more simple level, I disagree with Tzu and in my exlerience its just as simple as the fellow made it for himself (with some help from Papaji)....all one has to do is let go of preconditioned ideas about God, and ket go of doubt, and just look, and God is RIGHT HERE, everywhere, plain as day. Doubt plays a key role though...doubt is something formed and clung to, its not the natural state, its a kind of clinching really....if one un-clinches doubt and lets it go regarding God, amd dumps all the western judeo-christion-greek mythology iconography of God, God is obvious. observe doubt closely, by holding onto it and letting it go....doubt is an overly, an artiface of the mind that clouds to view of the obvious :-) What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt. I agree, Silver. I think it is much more valuable to contemplate existential issues in a state of not-knowingness. The intellect is only a part of mind--probably the most superficial--, and I suspect that contemplation provides access to deeper levels of mind where mind and universe are one. The fundamentalist says, "Believe this is true, and it will become true." I prefer to say, "Don't believe anyone. Look into the matter deeply, beyond ideas, and find out for yourself what is true."
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 8, 2013 8:13:17 GMT -5
Greetings.. What I suspect happens in this type of video is encouraging people to 'feel' god - create an emotional happening so that they start to believe things that they cannot genuinely say they have experienced because it's all make-believe. Please don't doubt doubt. I agree, Silver. I think it is much more valuable to contemplate existential issues in a state of not-knowingness. The intellect is only a part of mind--probably the most superficial--, and I suspect that contemplation provides access to deeper levels of mind where mind and universe are one. The fundamentalist says, "Believe this is true, and it will become true." I prefer to say, "Don't believe anyone. Look into the matter deeply, beyond ideas, and find out for yourself what is true." Nice articulation, ZD.. beginning with the the label 'God', the experiencer is already influenced by their history with that word.. when someone says "see God", the experiencer cannot undo their understanding and history with that label, so whatever imagined justification there is by saying the word is 'just a pointer', it's actually a pointer that influences the expeiences experience.. for that reason, i am guided by the principle of simplicity and authenticity to describe what some have confined by their cultural and/or religious conditioning as 'God', i use the phrase 'That which is' or 'isness'.. doing so lets go of the limitations imposed by people's conditioned understandings of the word 'God', and it includes those different understandings of 'God' within its openness to what 'is'.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 9:17:11 GMT -5
Here is a cool thing to do. sit and think and FEEL the thought "I am God" repeat it over and over to yourself for a few moments until you FEEL its truth. Then after a few moments switch to: "We are God" and think it and FEEL it repeatedly until you FEEL its truth Then after a few moments of that switch to "THIS is God" Repeat it over and over in your mind until you FEEL its truth God is always right here, conscious attention is all thats needed to "see" God at any time in any place...God is no mystery thats hidden. God is not elusive :-) I tried this. I got a pleasant feeling. I found the "THIS is God" phase to be easiest. I think this is because the "I am God" phase brought images of white coats into my head, and "We are God" brought images of Michael Jackson and We are the World singing. THIS is God is easy because it's just relabeling. I am God is tricky because I don't know what the heck I is referring to, much less God. We are God was slightly more digestible because I can imagine quickly other humans in my immediate vicinity. I prefer THIS is God, though. Probably because it is meaningless. Bonus tonguetwister: "One smart fellow, he felt smart. Two smart fellows, both felt smart. Three smart fellows, they felt smart." Say it fast, repeat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 9:26:54 GMT -5
Becoming truly atheist is not so easy to do. It's not so hard to get rid of the idea of the bearded old man in the sky. But what Lacan calls "the big Other" is much more difficult to get rid of. When we say "one doesn't do it" in response to some despicable act, who is this "one"? It's the "big Other". That's the place where the idea about God comes from and it operates in almost everyone and in every culture regardless of whether it's religious or not. When I read "one doesn't do it" I take it to mean the generic singular of "we." It's more of a reference to the social contract, a generic morality instilled and unquestioned. Is the Big Other the enforcer of that contract, lurking in the back of our minds?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2013 9:35:03 GMT -5
When I read that comment I immediately thought of this You know the God Complex thngy A psychosis based in uncontrolled narcissism, inflated arrogance and a perceived need to subjugate and/or ridicule other individuals deemed to be inferior or unworthy.Of course the person that has such a complex is completely blinded to it, being in a state of denial. If one actually tries what was suggested, its not likely that those concerns will remain ;-) If one remains only with the "I am God" part sure. But when one moves from the first part to the second part quite the opposite happens, in that a kind of profound unity in God is experienced, which leaves no room for narcissism ;-) what I find that happens is that in the beginning of feeling repeatedly the thought: "I am God" one can very quickly feel the truth of this, but then mind moves and feels a kind of guilt or even fear at thinking this thought...so what begins as as obvious truth gets pushed back by fear or guilt....when that happens, switch to repeatedly feeling the "We are God" thought and the awareness of being God returns but without the guilt or fear that mind creates. But with the awareness of "We are God", there is still a kind of personification, so in the last bit you shift awareness to "THIS is God"....and the personification fades away. All are true: I am God We are God THIS is God Explore by degrees.... its just a thing to try for those that have trouble with experiencing God or their God Nature. These concerns over narcism seem like vestiges cultural imprintation steeped in kind of "fear god" Christianity that has a bit too much of greek mythology built into it. In the east, folks are revered and loved for realizing that "They are God" While in the west they often ridiculed as being narcissistic lol but in the latter, it just seems like a kind of personal fear or something. That's not my issue with the "I am God" part. I don't have much "fear god" imprinted in here, I don't think. The red flags I saw had more to do with what NWM was referring to -- how "I am God" is a stereotypical cry of the temporarily deranged (or permanent). Certainly related to fear, as you say.
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