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Post by Beingist on Oct 13, 2013 11:13:37 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 11:46:30 GMT -5
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Oct 13, 2013 12:13:35 GMT -5
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frustratedwanter
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Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 13, 2013 20:26:56 GMT -5
Good question there. I have never been able to identify the mind, but I do identify things like thought concentration attention perception etc. I walked around with the question "What knows this thought?" for awhile. It's a very interesting question. "I don't know what" can throw the question out to "I don't know what" at any speed. W..h..a...t....k..nows? or whatknows?! And then "I don't know what" (guess it's a seeker) tries to catch "I don't know what" (suppose it must be this god almighty "AWARENESS") in the act of knowing something. It's a stupendously magnificent game of cat and mouse that I have yet to tire of. You can throw in any number of your favorite pointers into the mix. "Catch hold of the knower of the mind". "Thought comes from nothing, returns to nothing". (Where's that again and what is looking for that nothing source?) "The thinker is the thought". I got a million of 'em. In the end I think the emphasis is on "what knows" itself. Knowing. Looking itself. Always showing itself in all it's blazing glory. Every bit as unknowable as everyone I listen to says it is. Every bit as exactly right here. I do find it a painful game myself. Must be the mouse in the story. I don't think that this is a practice per se. It's an investigation. To date I haven't found any knower of a thought. And yet the thought is known.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 20:52:47 GMT -5
Good question there. I have never been able to identify the mind, but I do identify things like thought concentration attention perception etc. I walked around with the question "What knows this thought?" for awhile. It's a very interesting question. "I don't know what" can throw the question out to "I don't know what" at any speed. W..h..a...t....k..nows? or whatknows?! And then "I don't know what" (guess it's a seeker) tries to catch "I don't know what" (suppose it must be this god almighty "AWARENESS") in the act of knowing something. It's a stupendously magnificent game of cat and mouse that I have yet to tire of. You can throw in any number of your favorite pointers into the mix. "Catch hold of the knower of the mind". "Thought comes from nothing, returns to nothing". (Where's that again and what is looking for that nothing source?) "The thinker is the thought". I got a million of 'em. In the end I think the emphasis is on "what knows" itself. Knowing. Looking itself. Always showing itself in all it's blazing glory. Every bit as unknowable as everyone I listen to says it is. Every bit as exactly right here. I do find it a painful game myself. Must be the mouse in the story. I don't think that this is a practice per se. It's an investigation. To date I haven't found any knower of a thought. And yet the thought is known. The inquiries: What knows this thought? What is seeing this thought? What is having this experience? What is thinking this thought? What is smelling this food? Etc. Is not supposed to be an enquiry whose purpose is to find an answer....its an enquiry designed to continously bring alert silent attention back to the most essential self that is experiencing. If you are looking for an answer to the enquiry...you are missing the point. What is looking for an answer?
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frustratedwanter
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Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 13, 2013 22:12:49 GMT -5
Keeping quiet can be considered a practice, and so can thinking. Thinking could be considered an unconscious practice whereas ATA and other meditative activities that shift attention away from thinking are conscious practices. It is like using a thorn to remove a thorn. After the first thorn is removed, both thorns can be thrown away. Shutting up (shifting attention away from thoughts) will not lead to the realization that you are Eternal Existence because "Eternal Existence" is an idea/pointer. Shutting up will simply lead to the realization that selfhood is a figment of imagination. It will lead to the realization that you are not a person "in here" looking at a world "out there." It can also lead to the realization that time, space, causation, volition, and many other ideas are ideas, only. There's a real risk of greater mental health problems occurring when peeps are led to believe that they are figments of imagination, not observers of the observed, that time, space, causation, volition and in particular, death, are all illusions... I mean folks who have turned to spirituality in the first place are already struggling to cope mentally with reality. The confusion in turning from one description of reality to another, can lead to anxiety disorders, phobias and neuroses, having eating disorders and drug problems. In addition, spiritualists are more likely than others to be already taking medication for mental health problems. There's nothing wrong with quieting the mind, it's the acceptance of what the spiritual salesman are selling that's the real problem... I can't deny that in my view I am a weird ass human. Barely that. Barely functional in my own eyes. In my second go round with spirituality I WAS and still AM struggling to cope with reality. This idiot 'I' I think myself to be. In the first go round with spirituality I loved 'the baby Jesus'! Catholic. And up to a far too tender age life seemed o.k. despite all the hell that surrounded me. There was fun. So maybe "life is fun" was reality and "life is hell" was thrown on top of that. I see myself as anxious, neurotic (I think, don't know. So much seeming weirdness.) A damn sure drunk. The "confusion in turning from one description of reality to another" started back around age six. When "life is fun" turned into "I should never have been born". This is all a story. It's all I has. This apparent person runs around doing things I don't want it to do. This apparent person won't do what I want it to do. I don't know what this I is or this stubborn mule of a "person". I don't know what part of the message you saw scares you. There is no observer. And I've been floating on the edge of insanity for a long time. Because "life is good" was taken away. And quieting the mind is nonsense. Like standing in the Mississippi trying to stop the flow with your hand. I became so adept at clamping down on thought I have no idea what's driving this bugger. Possibly not so good. Before there is mind there is quiet. And I sincerely don't know much about that. STFU. (to myself!) Love. Apologies if needed.
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 13, 2013 22:26:39 GMT -5
And what is insanity anyway? I've always thought: If you put a sane person in an insane asylum... the locals would think he was crazy!
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Post by acewall on Oct 13, 2013 22:43:39 GMT -5
And what is insanity anyway? I've always thought: If you put a sane person in an insane asylum... the locals would think he was crazy! as was noticed in the man who mistook his wife for his hat
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Post by acewall on Oct 13, 2013 22:50:14 GMT -5
There's a real risk of greater mental health problems occurring when peeps are led to believe that they are figments of imagination, not observers of the observed, that time, space, causation, volition and in particular, death, are all illusions... I mean folks who have turned to spirituality in the first place are already struggling to cope mentally with reality. The confusion in turning from one description of reality to another, can lead to anxiety disorders, phobias and neuroses, having eating disorders and drug problems. In addition, spiritualists are more likely than others to be already taking medication for mental health problems. There's nothing wrong with quieting the mind, it's the acceptance of what the spiritual salesman are selling that's the real problem... Like standing in the Mississippi trying to stop the flow with your hand. I became so adept at clamping down on thought I have no idea what's driving this bugger. Possibly not so good. Before there is mind there is quiet. And I sincerely don't know much about that. STFU. (to myself!) Love. Apologies if needed. beautiful honesty here
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 13, 2013 23:45:28 GMT -5
trf -- when you say that bit about "there's a real risk" are you referring to peeps doing self inquiry or some sort of practice or are you referring to joe on the street who mayhaps has never known about any of this junk in the first place? What I'm referring to is the psyche of that percentage of the population who claim to have spiritual beliefs outside of the orthodox religions. Self inquiry or practices in themselves are fine, they don't cause mental health issues... It seems though that the ones who hold spiritual beliefs are 77 per cent more likely than others to be dependent on drugs, 72 per cent more likely to suffer from a phobia, and 50 per cent more likely to have a generalised anxiety disorder. If someone is already suffering from mental health issues, telling them that don't have self hood can only exasperate the problem... What hasn't been determined is if peeps already have pre-existing mental health issues before adopting spiritual beliefs or if the beliefs cause the problem... I find you again. It's fun. Perhaps you are in the mental health field. I started chemical means of escaping around 12 y.o. Knew how to cut off blood flow to the brain in 4th or 5th grade. I suffer from all the sufferings you mention. I stay away from people. Call me a recluse. (Don't worry. I don't, nor will I; own a gun.) (I think.) It sounds like you're worried I might lose that self. I'm worried I won't. And it doesn't look promising. To me it looks like a lot of insanity jells around orthodox religion. Belief itself condones any number of insanities. It's my understanding that so called 'awakenings' can look like flipping out. I've heard that in some cultures these flipping out people are recognized, nurtured and perhaps eventually followed. We westerners just prefer to lock up anything that scares us. Perhaps we have many awakened ones in holding, too drugged out to talk about it. What passes for the status quo in this world is already a mental health issue. I hope whatever happens over here might look more like a flipping 'into', 'cause I'm already out! Into freedom from a severely restricted apparent person. I'll call it a roll of the dice. And any fear of insanity is superseded by the agony of the apparent person. Might sound a mite dramatic. Selves can be like that.
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 13, 2013 23:49:38 GMT -5
And what is insanity anyway? I've always thought: If you put a sane person in an insane asylum... the locals would think he was crazy! as was noticed in the man who mistook his wife for his hat Sure brings up a funny image. Don't know the story though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 23:54:12 GMT -5
There's a real risk of greater mental health problems occurring when peeps are led to believe that they are figments of imagination, not observers of the observed, that time, space, causation, volition and in particular, death, are all illusions... I mean folks who have turned to spirituality in the first place are already struggling to cope mentally with reality. The confusion in turning from one description of reality to another, can lead to anxiety disorders, phobias and neuroses, having eating disorders and drug problems. In addition, spiritualists are more likely than others to be already taking medication for mental health problems. There's nothing wrong with quieting the mind, it's the acceptance of what the spiritual salesman are selling that's the real problem... I can't deny that in my view I am a weird ass human. Barely that. Barely functional in my own eyes. In my second go round with spirituality I WAS and still AM struggling to cope with reality. This idiot 'I' I think myself to be. In the first go round with spirituality I loved 'the baby Jesus'! Catholic. And up to a far too tender age life seemed o.k. despite all the hell that surrounded me. There was fun. So maybe "life is fun" was reality and "life is hell" was thrown on top of that. I see myself as anxious, neurotic (I think, don't know. So much seeming weirdness.) A darn sure drunk. The "confusion in turning from one description of reality to another" started back around age six. When "life is fun" turned into "I should never have been born". This is all a story. It's all I has. This apparent person runs around doing things I don't want it to do.This apparent person won't do what I want it to do. I don't know what this I is or this stubborn mule of a "person". I don't know what part of the message you saw scares you. There is no observer. And I've been floating on the edge of insanity for a long time. Because "life is good" was taken away. And quieting the mind is nonsense. Like standing in the Mississippi trying to stop the flow with your hand. I became so adept at clamping down on thought I have no idea what's driving this bugger. Possibly not so good. Before there is mind there is quiet. And I sincerely don't know much about that. STFU. (to myself!) Love. Apologies if needed. So are there two of you? One that is aware and a separate perception that you interpret to be yourself running around doing things that you don't want it to do?
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 14, 2013 0:45:47 GMT -5
I can't deny that in my view I am a weird ass human. Barely that. Barely functional in my own eyes. In my second go round with spirituality I WAS and still AM struggling to cope with reality. This idiot 'I' I think myself to be. In the first go round with spirituality I loved 'the baby Jesus'! Catholic. And up to a far too tender age life seemed o.k. despite all the hell that surrounded me. There was fun. So maybe "life is fun" was reality and "life is hell" was thrown on top of that. I see myself as anxious, neurotic (I think, don't know. So much seeming weirdness.) A darn sure drunk. The "confusion in turning from one description of reality to another" started back around age six. When "life is fun" turned into "I should never have been born". This is all a story. It's all I has. This apparent person runs around doing things I don't want it to do.This apparent person won't do what I want it to do. I don't know what this I is or this stubborn mule of a "person". I don't know what part of the message you saw scares you. There is no observer. And I've been floating on the edge of insanity for a long time. Because "life is good" was taken away. And quieting the mind is nonsense. Like standing in the Mississippi trying to stop the flow with your hand. I became so adept at clamping down on thought I have no idea what's driving this bugger. Possibly not so good. Before there is mind there is quiet. And I sincerely don't know much about that. STFU. (to myself!) Love. Apologies if needed. So are there two of you? One that is aware and a separate perception that you interpret to be yourself running around doing things that you don't want it to do? That does seem to be the experience. One that seems wise and another stuck in contraction, hell bent for self-destruction. Tried to milk it into an Eckhart Tolle awakening to no avail. Two? Not two? Me? Not me? No me? All is me? I suppose it's the mind trying to find to find an idea that fits the perception. Thanks for the question, it was of no help at this time. Until there is clarity there can only be none.
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Post by acewall on Oct 14, 2013 0:53:43 GMT -5
as was noticed in the man who mistook his wife for his hat Sure brings up a funny image. Don't know the story though. worth a read... words are important, accents too. I was born in New Zealand. www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTUcf7rLPRU
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frustratedwanter
Full Member
Apparently I posted something in 2020. I don't think that's what I'm looking for but what ta hey?
Posts: 150
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Post by frustratedwanter on Oct 14, 2013 1:44:39 GMT -5
it can be advantagious to understand, what these words are meant to mean. Sure words are words like roses are roses. Handles. Ego being is a word "I" (which is just another label) must get-to the bottom of if "I" must understand root-meanings. The whole idea of ego was ill-conceived. kinda like tits on a boar To quote an old friend: "That's why a man has tits!" And if I had contemplated that question instead of ALL the others... I would probably be much closer to not having clue than I am now.
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