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Post by nowhereman on Oct 4, 2013 21:19:30 GMT -5
Seeing as how you're agreeing there's no conceptual knowledge added, maybe I should ask what sort of knowledge you think the truth consists of. Lol funny I just answered your question in the awareness thread forgot the thread number but just posted it
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Post by Reefs on Oct 4, 2013 22:51:19 GMT -5
Where, in all the genuine non-dual pointers out there, does mind/knowledge even enter the picture? Where are the pointers pointing? of course it's mind/knowledge why do you think that as Ramana said that the vasanas have to be rooted out. The vasanas deal directly with the mind. Our minds become so polluted that they become a very poor instrument to know anything let alone the Self. A good cleaning helps immensely. That is why Vedanta works so well. It takes in the reality that yes you have a body, yes you have a mind and you have what we call a provisional self this is what you are stuck with and Vedanta shows you how to use what you have to not only be enlighten but to see exactly who you really are and this takes the mind sorry but that is just the way it is. Nowhereman The pointers are pointing prior to mind. So where do vasanas fit in here?
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Post by Beingist on Oct 4, 2013 23:48:33 GMT -5
of course it's mind/knowledge why do you think that as Ramana said that the vasanas have to be rooted out. The vasanas deal directly with the mind. Our minds become so polluted that they become a very poor instrument to know anything let alone the Self. A good cleaning helps immensely. That is why Vedanta works so well. It takes in the reality that yes you have a body, yes you have a mind and you have what we call a provisional self this is what you are stuck with and Vedanta shows you how to use what you have to not only be enlighten but to see exactly who you really are and this takes the mind sorry but that is just the way it is. Nowhereman The pointers are pointing prior to mind. So where do vasanas fit in here? Hey, is there anywhere you can get vasanas with tortillas, rice & beans?
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Post by lolly on Oct 5, 2013 6:22:36 GMT -5
My reflection is, if you really try to understand what another means to convey, then a certain sharing arises which leaves a feeling of being understood, but when we become a pointer, we also become preoccupied with our particular point of view, and deem it appropriate to impose that on another, which it isn't.
It's appropriate to endeavor to understand what people mean to by what they say, and when you deem that a delusion or something based on some other contextual framework, such as 'self' opposed to 'no-self', then one aspect is forced upon the other, when neither is actually True. The truth isn't objective in that way and it's much more a matter of discovery than it is something anyone knows.
People will insist that there is a truth that can be known, and that they know it; if not they can't self appoint themselves as 'pointers'... which is really a term which implies 'I know', and used as a tool to persuade others into the paradigms of old readings which are oft mentioned on spiritual sites.
That's another tool, niz and ramana and krishnamurt etc are pretty big guns to use for the sake of spiritual persuation, which is what happened to the ones who use them, after all. I mean no disrespect, I like those dudes too, but I have my doubts that they're half of what they are trumped up to be. They're just guys like me really, with their own little bent on things.
In the end though, everyone has things they want to convince themselves of, or understand or come to know, and most are happy to talk about it, whatever it might be, and really all that happens is a little self exploration. Imagine that niz and all them aren't really teaching anything, it's just we pretend that they do out of some inner need we have. I mean better to become aware of that need arising than bury your head in the sands of ramana, or cling to the skirts of Niz, or clutch krishnamurti as a world teacher, let alone fire their Truth bombs at passers by.
I just rant and rave, hehehehe, but I guess we all have our moments...
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Post by laughter on Oct 5, 2013 9:53:21 GMT -5
They're just guys like me really, with their own little bent on things. yup ... the only thing I'd add to what you said is what seems to me the next logical turn in the road: just because alot of people have relied on or celebrated someones words isn't a reason, in and of itself, to bother to tear them down or subject them to special scrutiny. It's a third-person version of "don't hate me just because I'm beautiful".
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Post by Reefs on Oct 5, 2013 10:29:53 GMT -5
The pointers are pointing prior to mind. So where do vasanas fit in here? Hey, is there anywhere you can get vasanas with tortillas, rice & beans? I dunno, maybe Samadhi has some leftovers in her kitchen...
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Post by Reefs on Oct 5, 2013 10:32:19 GMT -5
My reflection is, if you really try to understand what another means to convey, then a certain sharing arises which leaves a feeling of being understood, but when we become a pointer, we also become preoccupied with our particular point of view, and deem it appropriate to impose that on another, which it isn't. It's appropriate to endeavor to understand what people mean to by what they say, and when you deem that a delusion or something based on some other contextual framework, such as 'self' opposed to 'no-self', then one aspect is forced upon the other, when neither is actually True. The truth isn't objective in that way and it's much more a matter of discovery than it is something anyone knows. People will insist that there is a truth that can be known, and that they know it; if not they can't self appoint themselves as 'pointers'... which is really a term which implies 'I know', and used as a tool to persuade others into the paradigms of old readings which are oft mentioned on spiritual sites. That's another tool, niz and ramana and krishnamurt etc are pretty big guns to use for the sake of spiritual persuation, which is what happened to the ones who use them, after all. I mean no disrespect, I like those dudes too, but I have my doubts that they're half of what they are trumped up to be. They're just guys like me really, with their own little bent on things. In the end though, everyone has things they want to convince themselves of, or understand or come to know, and most are happy to talk about it, whatever it might be, and really all that happens is a little self exploration. Imagine that niz and all them aren't really teaching anything, it's just we pretend that they do out of some inner need we have. I mean better to become aware of that need arising than bury your head in the sands of ramana, or cling to the skirts of Niz, or clutch krishnamurti as a world teacher, let alone fire their Truth bombs at passers by. I just rant and rave, hehehehe, but I guess we all have our moments... As far as Niz is concerned, he never gave a talk nor did he teach anyone anything.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 5, 2013 10:33:20 GMT -5
They're just guys like me really, with their own little bent on things. yup ... the only thing I'd add to what you said is what seems to me the next logical turn in the road: just because alot of people have relied on or celebrated someones words isn't a reason, in and of itself, to bother to tear them down or subject them to special scrutiny. It's a third-person version of "don't hate me just because I'm beautiful". Haters are just fans in denial.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 17:09:58 GMT -5
Seeing as how you're agreeing there's no conceptual knowledge added, maybe I should ask what sort of knowledge you think the truth consists of. :-) Seems like knowledge IS a conceptualization how does one gain non-conceptual knowledge lol
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 17:13:33 GMT -5
Hey, is there anywhere you can get vasanas with tortillas, rice & beans? I dunno, maybe Samadhi has some leftovers in her kitchen... Oct 5, 2013 8:33:20 GMT -7 Reefs said: Haters are just fans in denial. ps: (this is the no attack allowed thread ;-)
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Post by enigma on Oct 5, 2013 21:33:46 GMT -5
Seeing as how you're agreeing there's no conceptual knowledge added, maybe I should ask what sort of knowledge you think the truth consists of. :-) Seems like knowledge IS a conceptualization how does one gain non-conceptual knowledge lol I don't know. Hehe.
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 5, 2013 21:40:24 GMT -5
Seeing as how you're agreeing there's no conceptual knowledge added, maybe I should ask what sort of knowledge you think the truth consists of. :-) Seems like knowledge IS a conceptualization how does one gain non-conceptual knowledge lol You don't that is the mistake most non knowing folks make..it's a no gainer you don't gain anything as it is already there nicely seated in Self..remember it's the knowledge that ends all knowledge and the funny thing is it has always been right there
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 22:04:45 GMT -5
:-) Seems like knowledge IS a conceptualization how does one gain non-conceptual knowledge lol You don't that is the mistake most non knowing folks make..it's a no gainer you don't gain anything as it is already there nicely seated in Self..remember it's the knowledge that ends all knowledge and the funny thing is it has always been right there I dunno JS, seems like a different catch phrase might work better than something about non-conceptual knowledge. ;-)
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 5, 2013 22:12:51 GMT -5
You don't that is the mistake most non knowing folks make..it's a no gainer you don't gain anything as it is already there nicely seated in Self..remember it's the knowledge that ends all knowledge and the funny thing is it has always been right there I dunno JS, seems like a different catch phrase might work better than something about non-conceptual knowledge. ;-) May be but I come from rebel stock. You see actual knowledge is never gained it's discovered in the remembrance of Self
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Post by lolly on Oct 6, 2013 1:00:22 GMT -5
They're just guys like me really, with their own little bent on things. yup ... the only thing I'd add to what you said is what seems to me the next logical turn in the road: just because alot of people have relied on or celebrated someones words isn't a reason, in and of itself, to bother to tear them down or subject them to special scrutiny. It's a third-person version of "don't hate me just because I'm beautiful". I am a fan of those guys, it's not a hatred thing. I question the validity of relying on the words of 'spiritual teachers', and suggest that isn't a good idea. It's actually quite an interesting philosophy, and I think I understand those points of view, but making Truth of it doesn't sit well, and even worse when self ordained pointers use them as arsenal. The view I take is, the truth is in the listening... sometimes people are wrong, and I'm wrong sometimes too (but very rarely and it was a very long time ago hehehe), so I find taking celebrity words as gospel fairly inane. Sometimes I find one's words apply to my ife in some way, but other-times not so much, and not just old dead spiritual legends, anyone. I mean you say what's relevant to you and I say what's relevant to me and so do these trumped up dead guys lol... We don't teach anything really, and it's the pointers who experience delusions in that regard, we just say what we think is relevant to ourselves in response to any one else's communications. Maybe these spiritual celebrities merely said what they found to be relevant, just like I would.
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