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Post by onehandclapping on Aug 28, 2013 2:10:49 GMT -5
I have been wondering how come most spouses of enlightened people never seem to get enlightened. It would seem that being at such close proximity and having sexual intercourse the spouse would get enlightened. So I have come up with the following possibilities: a) The spouse doesn't really trust the enlightened mate (so really the spouse doesn't love the enlightened mate). b) The enlightened mate doesn't express virtues the unenlightened spouse would reconize as being an enlightened person. c) The spouse is totally contented. d) The enlightened person doesn't trust the spouse. e) All the above. I had more reasons but can't think of them at the moment. Dang spouses never listen, that's why.... Hahaha. It might have to do with them viewing the person through pre-enlightenment interactions. They filter everything said by the person through those past interactions and thus are unable to hear the pointers from their spouse clearly. It could also be that people tend to gravitate towards opposites in some ways. So one person might be a hard core seeker and then awaken. The other might be a part time seeker and just not be driven towards it as much. And since that is no problem for the awakened one, there is no pressure for the other to be any different, this they never "reach" it. And lastly, I think this illustrates the fact that we have nothing to do with waking up. IT decides when IT wants to awaken a mind body form. No one has caused another to awaken despite the egos longing for it to be true...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 2:39:52 GMT -5
I have been wondering how come most spouses of enlightened people never seem to get enlightened. It would seem that being at such close proximity and having sexual intercourse the spouse would get enlightened. So I have come up with the following possibilities: a) The spouse doesn't really trust the enlightened mate (so really the spouse doesn't love the enlightened mate). b) The enlightened mate doesn't express virtues the unenlightened spouse would reconize as being an enlightened person. c) The spouse is totally contented. d) The enlightened person doesn't trust the spouse. e) All the above. f) The enlightened person is using the "robotic" mate for there own pleasures is there a fear of NOT becoming enlightened in relationship?enlightenment dissolves non-dependence on the other and is simply a source of Brightness to Oneself,
not the other.
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Post by enigma on Aug 28, 2013 3:36:59 GMT -5
I have been wondering how come most spouses of enlightened people never seem to get enlightened. It would seem that being at such close proximity and having sexual intercourse the spouse would get enlightened. So I have come up with the following possibilities: a) The spouse doesn't really trust the enlightened mate (so really the spouse doesn't love the enlightened mate). b) The enlightened mate doesn't express virtues the unenlightened spouse would reconize as being an enlightened person. c) The spouse is totally contented. d) The enlightened person doesn't trust the spouse. e) All the above. I had more reasons but can't think of them at the moment. Dang spouses never listen, that's why.... Hahaha. It might have to do with them viewing the person through pre-enlightenment interactions. They filter everything said by the person through those past interactions and thus are unable to hear the pointers from their spouse clearly. It could also be that people tend to gravitate towards opposites in some ways. So one person might be a hard core seeker and then awaken. The other might be a part time seeker and just not be driven towards it as much. And since that is no problem for the awakened one, there is no pressure for the other to be any different, this they never "reach" it. And lastly, I think this illustrates the fact that we have nothing to do with waking up. IT decides when IT wants to awaken a mind body form. No one has caused another to awaken despite the egos longing for it to be true... I agree that nobody's in a position to cause anybody else to awaken, but I disagree that "IT" decides anything. There is a natural unfolding, and everything everybody does is part of that unfolding, and hence is invaluable. And unless the word filter has been modified, I'll say it's just that nobody is doing it.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 28, 2013 6:58:12 GMT -5
Pretty funny topic, but as Laughter pointed out, there have been many enlightened duos, and the Pang family from ancient China supposedly all got enlightened, mother, father, son, and daughter. It's a very famous story in China. Layman Pang and his wife took all their possessions on a boat to the middle of a lake and dumped them overboard. When I travelled through southern China several years ago, I visited a giant pagoda in a Buddhist monastery that was built in honor of Ling Chao, Layman Pang's daughter.
On the funnier side, I remember a story by a Zen teacher who was having marital problems. He had been conducting a 90 day silent retreat, and he lived across the street from the Zen Center where the students were staying. One day he and his wife got into a particularly nasty shouting match, and as he left their apartment to return to the students, his wife followed him out the door screaming, "I'm going to come over there and tell them what you're REALLY like!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 7:18:22 GMT -5
Pretty funny topic, but as Laughter pointed out, there have been many enlightened duos, and the Pang family from ancient China supposedly all got enlightened, mother, father, son, and daughter. It's a very famous story in China. Layman Pang and his wife took all their possessions on a boat to the middle of a lake and dumped them overboard. When I travelled through southern China several years ago, I visited a giant pagoda in a Buddhist monastery that was built in honor of Ling Chao, Layman Pang's daughter. On the funnier side, I remember a story by a Zen teacher who was having marital problems. He had been conducting a 90 day silent retreat, and he lived across the street from the Zen Center where the students were staying. One day he and his wife got into a particularly nasty shouting match, and as he left their apartment to return to the students, his wife followed him out the door screaming, "I'm going to come over there and tell them what you're REALLY like!" Joshu Sasaki Roshi told me (1985) how a volatile wife could be an advantage on ones journey. "One must use it!" "Use everything!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 7:49:50 GMT -5
Pretty funny topic, but as Laughter pointed out, there have been many enlightened duos, and the Pang family from ancient China supposedly all got enlightened, mother, father, son, and daughter. It's a very famous story in China. Layman Pang and his wife took all their possessions on a boat to the middle of a lake and dumped them overboard. When I travelled through southern China several years ago, I visited a giant pagoda in a Buddhist monastery that was built in honor of Ling Chao, Layman Pang's daughter. On the funnier side, I remember a story by a Zen teacher who was having marital problems. He had been conducting a 90 day silent retreat, and he lived across the street from the Zen Center where the students were staying. One day he and his wife got into a particularly nasty shouting match, and as he left their apartment to return to the students, his wife followed him out the door screaming, "I'm going to come over there and tell them what you're REALLY like!" Joshu Sasaki Roshi told me (1985) how a volatile wife could be an advantage on ones journey. "One must use it!" "Use everything!" I thank the Lord every day that I'm living with such a finely tuned BS detector. Plus she's hawt.
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Post by freejoy on Aug 28, 2013 8:32:13 GMT -5
It just seems to this individuated expression that if say any issue the spouse has would gradually dissolve living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression.
For example: She/he doesn't "love truth" then living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression she/he would developed an appreciation for truth. It would seem that at some point in the mates evolution (if one agrees with consciousness evolution) that at some point one has to somehow start getting the importance of truth unless they never in all eternity get this then they wouldn't never ever get enlightened.
With that said, <-- see I'm growing. Then I wonder how come the spouses evolution isn't being acclerated by the interactions with the enlightened mate?
That's just one example.
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Post by topology on Aug 28, 2013 8:37:38 GMT -5
It just seems to this individuated expression that if say any issue the spouse has would gradually dissolve living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression. For example: She/he doesn't "love truth" then living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression she/he would developed an appreciation for truth. It would seem that at some point in the mates evolution (if one agrees with consciousness evolution) that at some point one has to somehow start getting the importance of truth unless they never in all eternity get this then they wouldn't never ever get enlightened. With that said, <-- see I'm growing. Then I wonder how come the spouses evolution isn't being acclerated by the interactions with the enlightened mate? That's just one example. Freejoy, there are several assumptions on your part. How willing are you to examine those assumptions and let them go if they prove to be problematic?
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Post by freejoy on Aug 28, 2013 8:55:27 GMT -5
It just seems to this individuated expression that if say any issue the spouse has would gradually dissolve living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression. For example: She/he doesn't "love truth" then living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression she/he would developed an appreciation for truth. It would seem that at some point in the mates evolution (if one agrees with consciousness evolution) that at some point one has to somehow start getting the importance of truth unless they never in all eternity get this then they wouldn't never ever get enlightened. With that said, <-- see I'm growing. Then I wonder how come the spouses evolution isn't being acclerated by the interactions with the enlightened mate? That's just one example. Freejoy, there are several assumptions on your part. How willing are you to examine those assumptions and let them go if they prove to be problematic? Sure, what are they? I said "seemed".
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 28, 2013 9:03:28 GMT -5
I'll just say that my hubby was very sweet and patient with me during my intense seeking phase; it makes me embarrassed to consider any such judgmental thought ever passed through my mind.
I remember once we watched Eat Pray Love together (admittedly I fell asleep halfway through), and I asked him "would you go off to India with me if I wanted to go on a spiritual journey?" He thought about it and said, "I'd follow you anywhere, though it wouldn't be a spiritual journey for me. I would go for the travel experience, to see the sights, meet new people, and have adventures." Likewise when I've mentioned wanting to go on retreat, he has said he'd join me but not attend the retreat because "I'd rather spend the time walking around and enjoying nature."
He was actually a Catholic scholar, long before we met, but he gave all that up. I know he has pondered all the existential questions; I have long suspected there's a story here, his own journey, but he is silent about it and just shrugs. He says he does not believe in God. I once asked if he thought he had a soul, he got quiet, considered, and said "nope." When I have asked, "Well then what do you believe in?" he'll tease and deflect and say, "I believe in you!" When I have asked, "What do you think happens after death?" "I don't know, and I don't care. Why waste time worrying about it?" There was a time when I considered him too sensory-oriented, now I'm not so sure that's a fault.
I can talk to him about anything - he will listen to me go on and on about my latest theory, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, usually adding helpful historical or scientific context. When syncs happen, he doesn't dismiss it, he just takes it for granted and doesn't see the big deal. He's continually reassured me I'm not crazy - in fact he says "you're the sanest person I know." The closest he gets to revealing any sort of faith is that he is fond of saying "relax, universe always provides."
Ultimately he's been the best teacher for me. He teaches without teaching - he teaches by way of role modeling. He's not perfect (he can have a bad temper and be impatient with people he considers "idiots"), but he is 100% Real. And, he's way too busy living, loving, and giving service to others to spend any time navel gazing and reading spiritual books.
Aside from the "there's nobody to enlighten" there's the question, "What does an enlightened individual expression look like?" It's my opinion that they do not always look like Buddha or Niz or other gurus. Perhaps they look like my husband?
Perhaps the unenlightened spouse was the enlightened one all along?
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Post by topology on Aug 28, 2013 9:31:21 GMT -5
It just seems to this individuated expression that if say any issue the spouse has would gradually dissolve living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression. For example: She/he doesn't "love truth" then living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression (1) she/he would developed an appreciation for truth. It would seem that at some point in the mates evolution (if one agrees with consciousness evolution) that at some point one has to somehow start getting the importance of truth unless they never in all eternity get this then they wouldn't never ever get enlightened. With that said, <-- see I'm growing. Then (2) I wonder how come the spouses evolution isn't being acclerated by the interactions with the enlightened mate?That's just one example. I really want to address (2) first. The issue here is the assumption of what growth and progress looks like. That needs to be discussed and understood before one can evaluate whether or not living with an "enlightened person" facilitates a person's growth. The next assumption to address is the underlined. Does a person grow because they are in the presence of the enlightened? Or do they grow because they are oriented towards their own growth? If I want to become wiser, it is my own wisdom that surrounds myself with "wiser" more experienced people. A smart learner doesn't need a formal teacher, they just immerse themselves in the knowledge and fraternize with the people that have the knowledge already. Eventually everybody comes into the appreciation of (1). If you don't have that orientation for yourself, life will knock you around until you develop that orientation regardless of who is in your life. How could living with an enlightened person stunt your own growth? Depending on the personalities involved, the " enlightened" person could keep triggering intense unconscious reactions from the "unenlightened" person which prevents that person from having the down time to reflect on themselves. Some of the implicit assumptions you are making, free joy, are that an enlightened person is perfect and that they have perfect knowledge about how to help others grow and become more self-aware. If anything the "enlightened" person doesn't know how to enlighten others and leaves the matter to God to do in God's time frame. It may not be in a person's best interest to become "enlightened".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 9:44:23 GMT -5
It may not be in a person's best interest to become "enlightened". I agree. But am also inclined to ask "wha?" ;-)
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 28, 2013 9:52:34 GMT -5
It just seems to this individuated expression that if say any issue the spouse has would gradually dissolve living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression. For example: She/he doesn't "love truth" then living and interacting with an enlightened individuated expression she/he would developed an appreciation for truth. It would seem that at some point in the mates evolution (if one agrees with consciousness evolution) that at some point one has to somehow start getting the importance of truth unless they never in all eternity get this then they wouldn't never ever get enlightened. With that said, <-- see I'm growing. Then I wonder how come the spouses evolution isn't being acclerated by the interactions with the enlightened mate?That's just one example. Are you talking about your own marriage, Freejoy? Or in general? In my experience, people gravitate into relationships with partners who are on equal level. When there is conflict, it means there are lessons to be learned on BOTH sides - in other words, both are acting unconsciously. If one partner has tackled their lesson and has "evolved" then the relationship would, simply and naturally, dissolve, having served its purpose. Why can I say this? Because everyone in our lives is simply an aspect of our very own selves, a reflection, a mirror. In your example, I could easily suggest that the so-called "enlightened" person needs to work on acceptance and nonjudgment, and needs to learn the lesson that there is no such thing as "levels." There could be an underlying attachment to the whole idea of progress, growth, evolution, and an attachment to MY truth over spouses' truth. You know what they say about the "log in your own eye"... well, that. If you are having relationship problems, change yourself, and the relationship changes. It may naturally dissolve (that was the case with my first marriage). Or improve and flourish (that is the case in my second marriage).
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Post by topology on Aug 28, 2013 10:06:56 GMT -5
It may not be in a person's best interest to become "enlightened". I agree. But am also inclined to ask "wha?" ;-) Uncaught exception in thread 15 of Topology.exe: Stack trace: Method "readPost" line 53: Method "parseSentences" line 5: Method "parseQuotes" line 32: Method "parseSentences" line 22: Method "parseSentence" line 326: Method "verifyCoherentQuestion" line 92: Exception :: IncoherentQuestion :: "Sentence ends in question mark but no clear instance of one of the five interrogatives 'who,what,where,when,how' were found."
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Post by freejoy on Aug 28, 2013 10:11:37 GMT -5
I'll just say that my hubby was very sweet and patient with me during my intense seeking phase; it makes me embarrassed to consider any such judgmental thought ever passed through my mind. I remember once we watched Eat Pray Love together (admittedly I fell asleep halfway through), and I asked him "would you go off to India with me if I wanted to go on a spiritual journey?" He thought about it and said, "I'd follow you anywhere, though it wouldn't be a spiritual journey for me. I would go for the travel experience, to see the sights, meet new people, and have adventures." Likewise when I've mentioned wanting to go on retreat, he has said he'd join me but not attend the retreat because "I'd rather spend the time walking around and enjoying nature." He was actually a Catholic scholar, long before we met, but he gave all that up. I know he has pondered all the existential questions; I have long suspected there's a story here, his own journey, but he is silent about it and just shrugs. He says he does not believe in God. I once asked if he thought he had a soul, he got quiet, considered, and said "nope." When I have asked, "Well then what do you believe in?" he'll tease and deflect and say, "I believe in you!" When I have asked, "What do you think happens after death?" "I don't know, and I don't care. Why waste time worrying about it?" There was a time when I considered him too sensory-oriented, now I'm not so sure that's a fault. I can talk to him about anything - he will listen to me go on and on about my latest theory, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, usually adding helpful historical or scientific context. When syncs happen, he doesn't dismiss it, he just takes it for granted and doesn't see the big deal. He's continually reassured me I'm not crazy - in fact he says "you're the sanest person I know." The closest he gets to revealing any sort of faith is that he is fond of saying "relax, universe always provides." Ultimately he's been the best teacher for me. He teaches without teaching - he teaches by way of role modeling. He's not perfect (he can have a bad temper and be impatient with people he considers "idiots"), but he is 100% Real. And, he's way too busy living, loving, and giving service to others to spend any time navel gazing and reading spiritual books. Aside from the "there's nobody to enlighten" there's the question, "What does an enlightened individual expression look like?" It's my opinion that they do not always look like Buddha or Niz or other gurus. Perhaps they look like my husband? Perhaps the unenlightened spouse was the enlightened one all along? The way I see what you've said here is, for one your spouse seems not enlightened because he calls people "idiots". Just calling people idiots because they pulled out in front of you and in general wouldn't be enlightened. Also, it is projecting ones own shadow on to other people and denying ones on "idiotness". Thereby creating homeless people and other less fortunate people who are the result of mass shadow projections. For an enlightened person to do this seems to me a great evil. "If you know to do good and don't it is evil to you" ~ Bible
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