|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 17:32:43 GMT -5
Right. But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. So for example, take space exploration. Scientific knowledge gives us a way to calculate positions and velocities of rockets and of the moon, and as a result we can send a rocket ship to the moon. When the rocket reaches it's target, we have tested and verified the scientific knowledge by applying it to some inventions and activities. If you use a psychic for the rocket calculations, you'll miss the moon and lose money or lives. I find myself wishing that the spiritual knowledge gave the same kind of results.I seem to have an unpleasant live, lived in ignorance. If I could choose pleasure or truth, I might agree with you and choose pleasure, but these hypotheticals are difficult ... I wouldn't know until I had the choice, and saw the details of the trade-off. I'm not sure I have that choice, so I also poke around looking for truth. Robert There isn't really something called spiritual knowledge, and what we call enlightenment doesn't involve any mystical abilities, though it seems mysticism does. The 'guru' doesn't know something you don't know, he knows less. It only seems like something is known because he can speak from that expanded space around the average person's constricted thoughts. He's addressing those constricted ideas from an expanded perspective, but those ideas, together with the expanded perspective of them, are still just ideas. None of it actually survives that expansion because all ideas are a contraction. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 17:33:54 GMT -5
Right. But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. So for example, take space exploration. Scientific knowledge gives us a way to calculate positions and velocities of rockets and of the moon, and as a result we can send a rocket ship to the moon. When the rocket reaches it's target, we have tested and verified the scientific knowledge by applying it to some inventions and activities. If you use a psychic for the rocket calculations, you'll miss the moon and lose money or lives. I find myself wishing that the spiritual knowledge gave the same kind of results. The proper realm of "spiritual knowledge" is psychology, i.e. "how does mind function?". That's why it has nothing to say about the external world and its workings. The Buddha didn't even know that the earth is a sphere, but he did know a thing or two about his own mind. Agreed. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 17:57:40 GMT -5
It takes far more courage and strength to set aside attack and defensiveness for emotional vulnerability, to let go of trying to be in control. There is a shift in perspective which helped me tremendously. Are you a body appearing in the context of the world? Or are the body and world appearing inside of your consciousness? In the former interpretation, the body is always at odds with the world, fighting for it's existence and the forces out in the world are much larger than the forces the body can generate. In the latter interpretation, no matter how the body and the world relate to each other, consciousness will always be there as the context in which both arise. Consciousness doesn't chose one over the other, but accepts and sustains them both. Both the world and the body fall away at night and come back in the morning. Even when consciousness dwindles to zero content, it's frame of reference remains. Consciousness is timeless and eternal while the world and body are ever changing. While the body-mind may be foggy or resist the experience that is occurring, consciousness itself has no resistance and is crystal clear. The content of your mind and emotions are a product of where your attention has been placed and for how long. Undoing the effects of continuous "outward attention" (perspective of body in world) may take some time to undo depending on how much emotional attachment is invested in the perspective. When you turn your attention towards consciousness itself and as a whole, you'll start shedding the accumulated materially oriented beliefs. Watch the body come and go. Watch the mind content come and go. Watch the world come and go. Watch the emotions come and go. Until your attention begins to turn to the watching itself. The watch the watching. Life can become and effortless sequence of transitions when your release your resistance to what is happening. Even if that transition is into anger, there is no resistance to being angry, even if that transition is into radical vulnerability and emotional outpouring, there is no resistance to being emotional and vulnerable. That is the only thing that I have ever found satisfying, was the absence of resistance. And, here you are, "trying to control" someone's understanding.. playing therapist.. don't resist, deal with it.. Be well.. Or you could say he offered his own personal experience and insights, and previously suggested what might be going on, and asked if that seemed right. He was far less forceful about his ideas and suggestions than you are. Why not lighten up a bit? |
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Aug 18, 2013 20:05:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. And, here you are, "trying to control" someone's understanding.. playing therapist.. don't resist, deal with it.. Be well.. Or you could say he offered his own personal experience and insights, and previously suggested what might be going on, and asked if that seemed right. He was far less forceful about his ideas and suggestions than you are. Why not lighten up a bit? Come empty to the discussion, begin at neutral.. lose the agenda that presupposes a result other than the authenticity of those you engage.. allow others to find their own way, rather than imposing your belief about what 'truth' is.. or, at a minimum, try coming empty to a discussion, try sincerely examining what 'is' actually happening, rather than your 'insistence' that 'your' beliefs about what you think is happening are 'truth'.. Be well.. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 20:14:20 GMT -5
Greetings.. Or you could say he offered his own personal experience and insights, and previously suggested what might be going on, and asked if that seemed right. He was far less forceful about his ideas and suggestions than you are. Why not lighten up a bit? Come empty to the discussion, begin at neutral.. lose the agenda that presupposes a result other than the authenticity of those you engage.. allow others to find their own way, rather than imposing your belief about what 'truth' is.. or, at a minimum, try coming empty to a discussion, try sincerely examining what 'is' actually happening, rather than your 'insistence' that 'your' beliefs about what you think is happening are 'truth'.. Be well.. What you argue against is precisely what you're doing in the same post that you argue against it. This is what happens when one is so unconscious he can't see himself reflected in every word he speaks. |
|
|
|
Post by tzujanli on Aug 18, 2013 20:28:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Come empty to the discussion, begin at neutral.. lose the agenda that presupposes a result other than the authenticity of those you engage.. allow others to find their own way, rather than imposing your belief about what 'truth' is.. or, at a minimum, try coming empty to a discussion, try sincerely examining what 'is' actually happening, rather than your 'insistence' that 'your' beliefs about what you think is happening are 'truth'.. Be well.. What you argue against is precisely what you're doing in the same post that you argue against it. This is what happens when one is so unconscious he can't see himself reflected in every word he speaks. This is what happens when you are exposed, you try to turn it back onto those that reveal your agenda.. I will reveal my agenda: to help others find their own way to clarity.. notice that, unlike you, i don't tell others what 'truth' is or isn't, because 'truth' ceases to be an issue once someone sees/experiences with clarity.. Be well.. |
|
|
|
Post by topology on Aug 18, 2013 20:40:12 GMT -5
Greetings.. What you argue against is precisely what you're doing in the same post that you argue against it. This is what happens when one is so unconscious he can't see himself reflected in every word he speaks. This is what happens when you are exposed, you try to turn it back onto those that reveal your agenda.. I will reveal my agenda: to help others find their own way to clarity.. notice that, unlike you, i don't tell others what 'truth' is or isn't, because 'truth' ceases to be an issue once someone sees/experiences with clarity.. Be well.. So when you are telling me or Enigma that we are stuck in beliefs and you are asserting your perception of reality, that is not you telling someone else what is true or not true? |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Aug 18, 2013 21:06:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. What you argue against is precisely what you're doing in the same post that you argue against it. This is what happens when one is so unconscious he can't see himself reflected in every word he speaks. This is what happens when you are exposed, you try to turn it back onto those that reveal your agenda.. I will reveal my agenda: to help others find their own way to clarity.. notice that, unlike you, i don't tell others what 'truth' is or isn't, because 'truth' ceases to be an issue once someone sees/experiences with clarity.. Be well.. So, true to your word, right now, say what you see/experience as this message board with this clarity. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Aug 18, 2013 21:16:28 GMT -5
Right. But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. So for example, take space exploration. Scientific knowledge gives us a way to calculate positions and velocities of rockets and of the moon, and as a result we can send a rocket ship to the moon. When the rocket reaches it's target, we have tested and verified the scientific knowledge by applying it to some inventions and activities. If you use a psychic for the rocket calculations, you'll miss the moon and lose money or lives. I find myself wishing that the spiritual knowledge gave the same kind of results.I seem to have an unpleasant live, lived in ignorance. If I could choose pleasure or truth, I might agree with you and choose pleasure, but these hypotheticals are difficult ... I wouldn't know until I had the choice, and saw the details of the trade-off. I'm not sure I have that choice, so I also poke around looking for truth. Robert There isn't really something called spiritual knowledge, and what we call enlightenment doesn't involve any mystical abilities, though it seems mysticism does. The 'guru' doesn't know something you don't know, he knows less. It only seems like something is known because he can speak from that expanded space around the average person's constricted thoughts. He's addressing those constricted ideas from an expanded perspective, but those ideas, together with the expanded perspective of them, are still just ideas. None of it actually survives that expansion because all ideas are a contraction. Can I get an amen?!! Really, nicely said. |
|
|
|
Post by topology on Aug 18, 2013 21:26:11 GMT -5
So when you are telling me or Enigma that we are stuck in beliefs and you are asserting your perception of reality, that is not you telling someone else what is true or not true? You have excuses when someone confronts or challenges - I suppose that's quite human type behavior - the thing is, why bother to speak at all to one another, if all you're going to do is say things like "...that is not you telling someone else what is true or not true?" You can't seem to bring yourself to let down your defenses long enough to take an honest look. It is something I'm planning on working on with myself, to not be so defensive, but yet yes, we all need to have some defenses. Otherwise, we would all get taken advantage of sometimes. All I'm pointing out is that Tzu is doing exactly what he is telling me to stop doing. I'm not even telling him to stop doing the telling. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 21:37:37 GMT -5
All I'm pointing out is that Tzu is doing exactly what he is telling me to stop doing. I'm not even telling him to stop doing the telling. No, you're just throwing it back in my face. same - same - unacceptable |
|
|
|
Post by silver on Aug 18, 2013 21:37:41 GMT -5
Hey, it's fine, you can ignore me because it's old news. I'm fine. It's cool if you don't want to talk about it because I know you're having a good laugh about it. I'm serious. It's fine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 21:40:55 GMT -5
Hey, it's fine, you can ignore me because it's old news. I'm fine. It's cool if you don't want to talk about it because I know you're having a good laugh about it. I'm serious. It's fine. Can you assist my understanding? Is the enlightened woman identical to the enlightened man or is this simply the issue about how soul selects its gender? |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 21:49:52 GMT -5
Greetings.. What you argue against is precisely what you're doing in the same post that you argue against it. This is what happens when one is so unconscious he can't see himself reflected in every word he speaks. This is what happens when you are exposed, you try to turn it back onto those that reveal your agenda.. I will reveal my agenda: to help others find their own way to clarity.. notice that, unlike you, i don't tell others what 'truth' is or isn't, because 'truth' ceases to be an issue once someone sees/experiences with clarity.. Be well.. All you have to do is read your own post and you'll see that it does precisely what the post describes. There's no need to come up with another story about what devious thing I'm trying to do this time. It's very simple; I'm pointing out your projection. Have the courage to take a look at it. Forgedabout trying to help others to clarity and help yourself for a change. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 18, 2013 21:55:54 GMT -5
So when you are telling me or Enigma that we are stuck in beliefs and you are asserting your perception of reality, that is not you telling someone else what is true or not true? - I suppose that's quite human type behavior - the thing is, why bother to speak at all to one another, if all you're going to do is say things like "...that is not you telling someone else what is true or not true?" You can't seem to bring yourself to let down your defenses long enough to take an honest look. It is something I'm planning on working on with myself, to not be so defensive, but yet yes, we all need to have some defenses. Otherwise, we would all get taken advantage of sometimes. What that seems to mean is 'You don't admit that you're just wrong'. Any explanation that doesn't amount to an admission of guilt will be called an excuse, won't it? |
|
