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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 3:30:53 GMT -5
Hi,
When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. [edit: I try to clarify this sentence below. I don't mean that mystics become dysfunctional humans. I mean the knowledge isn't apply-able and test-able like scientific knowledge.] This worries me. Some spiritual teachers make some extreme claims about the existence of psychic powers (ESP, healing), but have no proof, and at times seem to be fooled by stage magicians (eg, Uri Geller, John Edward) or bad science (eg, Duke parapsychology experiments).
If you "see Reality", do you get any ability that verifies you aren't merely having some kind of hallucination or auto-induced endorphin release? I'm desperate for my life to be different, and I feel like a failure. This painful situation seems like ripe ground for some kind of mental break like this.
I guess the usual argument in mysticism is that there is no material proof or experiment, but if you go there yourself, you won't be bothered by these doubts. That hasn't worked yet for me.
Robert
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 18, 2013 7:01:25 GMT -5
Hi, When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. Based on reading a lot of enlightened people's stories I would say that most of them still are functional, some become dysfunctional, some become even more functional than before. The problem is that their interest seems to shift toward either not caring about anyone or anything, or toward trying to enlighten other people. But the question about science is a bit misconceived. It doesn't matter whether you're enlightened or not, good science is simply the rigorous application of the scientific method, i.e. an enlightened person would have to do science in exactly the same way as a non-enlightened person would. You are correct. Without proof these things can be simply dismissed. Their excuses are irrelevant. I'm not enlightened. The way I see it is that it is irrelevant whether we participate in some greater truth or not. The only thing that is relevant is whether life is more pleasant or not. A pleasant life lived in ignorance is better than a miserable life lived in truth. Life is finite, nobody will judge us for our sins or the falsehoods we embraced. The only relevant measure is whether the life we lived was pleasant or miserable.
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Post by tzujanli on Aug 18, 2013 7:38:25 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi, When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. Based on reading a lot of enlightened people's stories I would say that most of them still are functional, some become dysfunctional, some become even more functional than before. The problem is that their interest seems to shift toward either not caring about anyone or anything, or toward trying to enlighten other people. But the question about science is a bit misconceived. It doesn't matter whether you're enlightened or not, good science is simply the rigorous application of the scientific method, i.e. an enlightened person would have to do science in exactly the same way as a non-enlightened person would. You are correct. Without proof these things can be simply dismissed. Their excuses are irrelevant. I'm not enlightened. The way I see it is that it is irrelevant whether we participate in some greater truth or not. The only thing that is relevant is whether life is more pleasant or not. A pleasant life lived in ignorance is better than a miserable life lived in truth. Life is finite, nobody will judge us for our sins or the falsehoods we embraced. The only relevant measure is whether the life we lived was pleasant or miserable. One man's pleasure is another man's pain.. i don't sense that Life is measured by pleasure/pain but by meaningful participation.. There is only what is happening right here, right now, and a person's existence is self-evident, it needs no proof.. stories ' about' a person's existence are either directly and functionally relevant to 'right here, right now', or it's not.. Be well..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 7:40:58 GMT -5
Right. But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. So for example, take space exploration. Scientific knowledge gives us a way to calculate positions and velocities of rockets and of the moon, and as a result we can send a rocket ship to the moon. When the rocket reaches it's target, we have tested and verified the scientific knowledge by applying it to some inventions and activities. If you use a psychic for the rocket calculations, you'll miss the moon and lose money or lives. I find myself wishing that the spiritual knowledge gave the same kind of results.
I seem to have an unpleasant live, lived in ignorance. If I could choose pleasure or truth, I might agree with you and choose pleasure, but these hypotheticals are difficult ... I wouldn't know until I had the choice, and saw the details of the trade-off. I'm not sure I have that choice, so I also poke around looking for truth.
Robert
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 18, 2013 8:03:02 GMT -5
Right. But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. So for example, take space exploration. Scientific knowledge gives us a way to calculate positions and velocities of rockets and of the moon, and as a result we can send a rocket ship to the moon. When the rocket reaches it's target, we have tested and verified the scientific knowledge by applying it to some inventions and activities. If you use a psychic for the rocket calculations, you'll miss the moon and lose money or lives. I find myself wishing that the spiritual knowledge gave the same kind of results. The proper realm of "spiritual knowledge" is psychology, i.e. "how does mind function?". That's why it has nothing to say about the external world and its workings. The Buddha didn't even know that the earth is a sphere, but he did know a thing or two about his own mind.
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Post by topology on Aug 18, 2013 8:07:27 GMT -5
Hi, When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. This worries me. Some spiritual teachers make some extreme claims about the existence of psychic powers (ESP, healing), but have no proof, and at times seem to be fooled by stage magicians (eg, Uri Geller, John Edward) or bad science (eg, Duke parapsychology experiments). If you "see Reality", do you get any ability that verifies you aren't merely having some kind of hallucination or auto-induced endorphin release? I'm desperate for my life to be different, and I feel like a failure. This painful situation seems like ripe ground for some kind of mental break like this. I guess the usual argument in mysticism is that there is no material proof or experiment, but if you go there yourself, you won't be bothered by these doubts. That hasn't worked yet for me. Robert Hi Robert, Neither scientific discovery or mystical powers are going to cure your core discontent. This is because neither addresses the problem you are facing. I don't know that even you know what the problem is. The negative feelings of dysphoria with your life are a symptom. It is how you know you have a problem. Our feelings are generated by our interpretive paradigms. You feel like a failure because you're not living up to the expectations you hold yourself to. Even if those expectations come from an external source initially (boss, wife, parents, society), you agree with them and apply them to yourself. Adopting external expectations is a form of people-pleasing and co-dependency. I don't know that this is what you've done, only you can decide that for yourself. Feel free to get into more of what is going on for you, but given what you've said so far it looks like you are laboring under some images of how you think the world and your life should be manifesting. When the actual appearing world doesn't match those mental images it creates cognitive dissonance. When you don't have the power to force the world to conform to those images, you feel helpless and like a failure. True happiness doesn't come from getting what you want and re-shaping the external world to match your requirements, it comes from shedding those images and releasing the conditions we place on being happy. I've put forward the possibility that the problem you're facing is one of expectation, having an image in mind of how you think the world should be and the world not meeting that image. Does this feel right? Or do you feel like the problem you are facing is different?
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 18, 2013 8:32:54 GMT -5
Hi, When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. [edit: I try to clarify this sentence below. I don't mean that mystics become dysfunctional humans. I mean the knowledge isn't apply-able and test-able like scientific knowledge.] This worries me. Some spiritual teachers make some extreme claims about the existence of psychic powers (ESP, healing), but have no proof, and at times seem to be fooled by stage magicians (eg, Uri Geller, John Edward) or bad science (eg, Duke parapsychology experiments). If you "see Reality", do you get any ability that verifies you aren't merely having some kind of hallucination or auto-induced endorphin release? I'm desperate for my life to be different, and I feel like a failure. This painful situation seems like ripe ground for some kind of mental break like this. I guess the usual argument in mysticism is that there is no material proof or experiment, but if you go there yourself, you won't be bothered by these doubts. That hasn't worked yet for me. Robert Most (not all) scientists and mystics are pretty much in the same bucket; both are believing in an imaginary world, both are caught in the illusion. The scientist believes the outer, material world is real; the mystic believes the inner world of the self or soul is real. "If you "see Reality", do you get any ability"It's possible Einstein, Mozart, and Shakespeare were enlightened. Each were born with biological advantages (gifted intelligence). It's not so much they gained an ability, but simply got out of their own way to allow that ability to be used to its fullest potential. Shakespeare and Mozart may have created their masterpieces while in flow state. Einstein may have had his insights during flow state. Who knows what you could become if you didn't feel like a failure, and stopped wasting time plagued by doubts, and wishing life to be different? This is not to suggest that everyone has potential to become another Einstein or Shakespeare. Only roses can become roses, daisies become daisies, weeds become weeds.... the weed will find no peace or relief, wishing it could be a rose instead.
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Post by Ishtahota on Aug 18, 2013 9:55:45 GMT -5
Robertk I grew up with a father that was a wide open psychic. I saw him do things my whole life. I have seen him move objects with his mind and some other friends of his have seen him do this also, and they never spoke to him again. He could look into a body and draw things that were wrong with it, and when they went to the doctor to have it checked out, it saved their life. And they never spoke to him again. He tried working with the police during some investigations and he was put in jail because what he told them about the crime scene was correct. He would tell my mother and I to be home at a certain time during the night and we would sit and watch UFO's flying around and playing in the sky. I would loose something and he would tell me where to go and get it back. Even with all that I had seen in my life growing up with him, I still had to do about 10 years worth of personal clearing work before I could even start to open up any abilities of my own. And a few years of work beyond that before I could develop conscious contact with the other side. 99% of the people out there in public who claim to have abilities are full of sh*t as a christmas turkey, but there are a few real people out there mixed in with the rest of us. A spiritual journey is a personal one, it is not meant for the collective. Make up your mind to go for it and ask the other side for. Then be willing to do your part, they can't do anything for you if you are not willing to do your part.
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Post by laughter on Aug 18, 2013 12:02:27 GMT -5
But what I meant was that it seems to me the spiritual "knowledge" doesn't yield any apply-able or test-able powers in the world, the way typical scientific knowledge does. The process of science involves a neti-neti stage: current ideas are questioned and then challenged by experiment. The creative process comes into play in devising the experiments and in synthesizing the new ideas that replace the old to fit the results of experiment. This is just a general pattern that does of course have a few exceptions, and much of the time the experiments are designed to confirm, rather than to tear down an existing theory. The spiritual ideas that come down to us, by contrast, have generally been the ones that resulted in the greatest cultural resonance over time or that top-down power structures have been able to impose on and stabilize over a given population. While both science and spirituality have the element of consensus at their root, the scientific method is grounded in objectivity, while spirituality is the acknowledgment of the subjective. An objective look at the world is something that can and has been done collectively and with finality, and what was found was that objectivity itself is a chimera ... that there is no way to look at the world with pure objectivity. A subjective look at the world is of course something that can only be done individually, but what we find is a commonality of description of experience by those that write about their experiences that converges with the scientific result. That commonality points to the conclusion that there is no knowledge that's applicable. Nothing to know, at least, no piece of information that can be used to express the result of what we can only perceive as the description of a subjective journey. That these two sentences convey information is unavoidable, but they, like any other information, aren't what they refer to: they only point indirectly at what's referred to, as what is referred to isn't a presence but an absence. That the institutions of science and spirituality continue on despite this common knowledge is simply the nature of institutions. In terms of how you can know if it's an illusion, essentially, how you can know if you are deceiving yourself about this "knowledge" (as you put it, complete with your scare quotes!) ... the spiritual subjective descriptions share a commonality of being truly at peace with this absence, of truly accepting that there is nothing to know. In this, any question based on the polarity of subjectivity vs. objectivity, which is at the root of your question, is seen as futile -- some like to express this as "the question is misconceived", but from a subjective standpoint, what question can ever possibly be misconceived? ... but when you can honestly see the flaw in your question, you'll know you're not deceiving yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 12:04:49 GMT -5
I just thought about this for a couple hours and now I'm more confused then when I started. 1) This may be possible. Intellectually it's a clear idea and it makes sense. 2) I honestly think that I would be happy if I had magical powers over the material creation. At least it would last for years. 3) Maybe this type of acceptance or giving up desire can happen, but I have emotional blocks against it, which may be unaffected by rational argument. It feels like it would be lying down and relaxing while being physically assaulted and humiliated. There is a part of me that hates weakness, and might rather be dead than take that path. I need to go so that's all I can say for now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 12:26:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the story. Like Fox Mulder... I want to believe. I've seen some strange things in my life as well. Nothing quite that extreme, but some things made me wonder. I must try to keep an open mind.
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Post by topology on Aug 18, 2013 13:33:43 GMT -5
I just thought about this for a couple hours and now I'm more confused then when I started. 1) This may be possible. Intellectually it's a clear idea and it makes sense. 2) I honestly think that I would be happy if I had magical powers over the material creation. At least it would last for years. 3) Maybe this type of acceptance or giving up desire can happen, but I have emotional blocks against it, which may be unaffected by rational argument. It feels like it would be lying down and relaxing while being physically assaulted and humiliated. There is a part of me that hates weakness, and might rather be dead than take that path. I need to go so that's all I can say for now. It takes far more courage and strength to set aside attack and defensiveness for emotional vulnerability, to let go of trying to be in control. There is a shift in perspective which helped me tremendously. Are you a body appearing in the context of the world? Or are the body and world appearing inside of your consciousness? In the former interpretation, the body is always at odds with the world, fighting for it's existence and the forces out in the world are much larger than the forces the body can generate. In the latter interpretation, no matter how the body and the world relate to each other, consciousness will always be there as the context in which both arise. Consciousness doesn't chose one over the other, but accepts and sustains them both. Both the world and the body fall away at night and come back in the morning. Even when consciousness dwindles to zero content, it's frame of reference remains. Consciousness is timeless and eternal while the world and body are ever changing. While the body-mind may be foggy or resist the experience that is occurring, consciousness itself has no resistance and is crystal clear. The content of your mind and emotions are a product of where your attention has been placed and for how long. Undoing the effects of continuous "outward attention" (perspective of body in world) may take some time to undo depending on how much emotional attachment is invested in the perspective. When you turn your attention towards consciousness itself and as a whole, you'll start shedding the accumulated materially oriented beliefs. Watch the body come and go. Watch the mind content come and go. Watch the world come and go. Watch the emotions come and go. Until your attention begins to turn to the watching itself. The watch the watching. Life can become and effortless sequence of transitions when your release your resistance to what is happening. Even if that transition is into anger, there is no resistance to being angry, even if that transition is into radical vulnerability and emotional outpouring, there is no resistance to being emotional and vulnerable. That is the only thing that I have ever found satisfying, was the absence of resistance.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 15:18:55 GMT -5
Hi, When a scientist gains some knowledge, they gain some power over the world. Humans have cured diseases, built cars, radios, and rocket ships, all with applied scientific knowledge (aka, engineering). When a mystic gains some knowledge, they don't seem to be able to do anything. [edit: I try to clarify this sentence below. I don't mean that mystics become dysfunctional humans. I mean the knowledge isn't apply-able and test-able like scientific knowledge.] This worries me. Some spiritual teachers make some extreme claims about the existence of psychic powers (ESP, healing), but have no proof, and at times seem to be fooled by stage magicians (eg, Uri Geller, John Edward) or bad science (eg, Duke parapsychology experiments). If you "see Reality", do you get any ability that verifies you aren't merely having some kind of hallucination or auto-induced endorphin release? I'm desperate for my life to be different, and I feel like a failure. This painful situation seems like ripe ground for some kind of mental break like this. I guess the usual argument in mysticism is that there is no material proof or experiment, but if you go there yourself, you won't be bothered by these doubts. That hasn't worked yet for me. Robert I have the belief that I am a perceiver or the awareness, and at the same time the belief that we are bodies, thinkers and doer's in an objective world.... There is perfection in those beliefs as such, because there isn't actually a somebody who can do anything about whatever belief is being manifested and perceived as a perception... There isn't actually a mechanism for changing beliefs. Nor is it necessary. They will change when the time comes. Whatever is perceived is believed and becomes real...but we are perceivers...not believers.
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Post by tzujanli on Aug 18, 2013 15:34:24 GMT -5
I just thought about this for a couple hours and now I'm more confused then when I started. 1) This may be possible. Intellectually it's a clear idea and it makes sense. 2) I honestly think that I would be happy if I had magical powers over the material creation. At least it would last for years. 3) Maybe this type of acceptance or giving up desire can happen, but I have emotional blocks against it, which may be unaffected by rational argument. It feels like it would be lying down and relaxing while being physically assaulted and humiliated. There is a part of me that hates weakness, and might rather be dead than take that path. I need to go so that's all I can say for now. It takes far more courage and strength to set aside attack and defensiveness for emotional vulnerability, to let go of trying to be in control. There is a shift in perspective which helped me tremendously. Are you a body appearing in the context of the world? Or are the body and world appearing inside of your consciousness? In the former interpretation, the body is always at odds with the world, fighting for it's existence and the forces out in the world are much larger than the forces the body can generate. In the latter interpretation, no matter how the body and the world relate to each other, consciousness will always be there as the context in which both arise. Consciousness doesn't chose one over the other, but accepts and sustains them both. Both the world and the body fall away at night and come back in the morning. Even when consciousness dwindles to zero content, it's frame of reference remains. Consciousness is timeless and eternal while the world and body are ever changing. While the body-mind may be foggy or resist the experience that is occurring, consciousness itself has no resistance and is crystal clear. The content of your mind and emotions are a product of where your attention has been placed and for how long. Undoing the effects of continuous "outward attention" (perspective of body in world) may take some time to undo depending on how much emotional attachment is invested in the perspective. When you turn your attention towards consciousness itself and as a whole, you'll start shedding the accumulated materially oriented beliefs. Watch the body come and go. Watch the mind content come and go. Watch the world come and go. Watch the emotions come and go. Until your attention begins to turn to the watching itself. The watch the watching. Life can become and effortless sequence of transitions when your release your resistance to what is happening. Even if that transition is into anger, there is no resistance to being angry, even if that transition is into radical vulnerability and emotional outpouring, there is no resistance to being emotional and vulnerable. That is the only thing that I have ever found satisfying, was the absence of resistance. And, here you are, "trying to control" someone's understanding.. playing therapist.. don't resist, deal with it.. Be well..
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Post by topology on Aug 18, 2013 16:16:08 GMT -5
It takes far more courage and strength to set aside attack and defensiveness for emotional vulnerability, to let go of trying to be in control. There is a shift in perspective which helped me tremendously. Are you a body appearing in the context of the world? Or are the body and world appearing inside of your consciousness? In the former interpretation, the body is always at odds with the world, fighting for it's existence and the forces out in the world are much larger than the forces the body can generate. In the latter interpretation, no matter how the body and the world relate to each other, consciousness will always be there as the context in which both arise. Consciousness doesn't chose one over the other, but accepts and sustains them both. Both the world and the body fall away at night and come back in the morning. Even when consciousness dwindles to zero content, it's frame of reference remains. Consciousness is timeless and eternal while the world and body are ever changing. While the body-mind may be foggy or resist the experience that is occurring, consciousness itself has no resistance and is crystal clear. The content of your mind and emotions are a product of where your attention has been placed and for how long. Undoing the effects of continuous "outward attention" (perspective of body in world) may take some time to undo depending on how much emotional attachment is invested in the perspective. When you turn your attention towards consciousness itself and as a whole, you'll start shedding the accumulated materially oriented beliefs. Watch the body come and go. Watch the mind content come and go. Watch the world come and go. Watch the emotions come and go. Until your attention begins to turn to the watching itself. The watch the watching. Life can become and effortless sequence of transitions when your release your resistance to what is happening. Even if that transition is into anger, there is no resistance to being angry, even if that transition is into radical vulnerability and emotional outpouring, there is no resistance to being emotional and vulnerable. That is the only thing that I have ever found satisfying, was the absence of resistance. And, here you are, "trying to control" someone's understanding.. playing therapist.. don't resist, deal with it.. Be well.. Hi Projectionist Tzu, I've done nothing other than what you just did with me. I'll let you decide whether that was "trying to control the other person" and "play the therapist" or simply speaking from one's own understanding. Be Well!
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