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Aug 1, 2013 14:27:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 14:27:53 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with peeps having subjective experiences which SEEM to visit different "dimensions" or subjective realms. I do have problems with making claims about the nature of some external reality. Quantum physics is a mathematical model derived from machine experiments about an external world. The whole "parallel universes" idea in Quantum Mechanics was made up as an arbitrary explanation as to why random processes choose the outcomes that happen. In order to keep symmetry/balance in the mind, the idea of a parallel universes is employed where the random process coming out with an alternate outcomes is used to "explain" the random event. But it suffers from the same problem of explaining why "this" universe is experienced as opposed to some other. There must be some version of you in a parallel universe where the outcome came out differently. This is just mental speculation about a problem only perceived by a mind that can't accept true randomness. It's adding untestable/unnecessary story to try to explain the observations. I got no problem with with all the possible craziness in our subjective experiences. I do have a problem with misconstruing quantum physics to try to justify or explain our subjective experiences. They are what they are and stand on their own. I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. I'm not dealing with ideas over here, I'm dealing with the direct experience of no longer seeing a sequence of events that occur in a linearity of Time passing with an implication of a past a future event....my experience is that there is no "time", and that phenomena are constantly shifting in this moment. That is my direct experience, the "idea" that is implicated from this direct experience is that all possibilities are occurring in this moment, and that we shift from possibility to possibility in THIS MOMENT....but that is just an idea, in direct experience, I am only experience one possibility, not multiple possibilities at once.
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Aug 1, 2013 14:30:43 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 14:30:43 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. I'm not dealing with ideas over here, I'm dealing with the direct experience of no longer seeing a sequence of events that occur in a linearity of Time passing with an implication of a past a future event....my experience is that there is no "time", and that phenomena are constantly shifting in this moment. That is my direct experience, the "idea" that is implicated from this direct experience is that all possibilities are occurring in this moment, and that we shift from possibility to possibility in THIS MOMENT....but that is just an idea, in direct experience, I am only experience one possibility, not multiple possibilities at once. I do not doubt your direct experience, as I've shared it myself. I know what you're talking about even if it is difficult to put into words, which I think you are doing an excellent job of doing. But, the above post to Top was just me playing with ideas, not relating any particular experience.
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Deleted
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Aug 1, 2013 14:42:52 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 14:42:52 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. yup, yup .. its called TMT 'round here. dis-satisfied with this moment, so addictively imagining something else?
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Deleted
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Aug 1, 2013 15:27:37 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 15:27:37 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. yup, yup .. its called TMT 'round here. dis-satisfied with this moment, so addictively imagining something else? Ahh, the goofyness of a backseat amateur psychologist lol It must be very relieving to be able to categorize and summarize things so effortlessly lol
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Deleted
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Aug 1, 2013 16:07:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 16:07:23 GMT -5
yup, yup .. its called TMT 'round here. dis-satisfied with this moment, so addictively imagining something else? Ahh, the goofyness of a backseat amateur psychologist lol It must be very relieving to be able to categorize and summarize things so effortlessly lol your comment neither answers my question, nor helps me to understand how it may have been ill conceived.
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Aug 1, 2013 16:56:50 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2013 16:56:50 GMT -5
My objection to this thought experiment was always: "well the cat sure knows if it's dead or not!" Hehe ... yes to your point about post-observation top' ... and this whole idea about objects disappearing when you don't look is nice to get peoples attention but it presents a distorted view... What Lanza said other than that about QM though was: "When we reach for a glass of water our sense of space and timing is (almost) always impeccable. They're essential to our every movement and moment. We know they exist because the glass is always there when we reach for it. We forget that the glass is composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of its subatomic particles actually has any physical properties until we observe it." Yes, what I've bolded interposes a conceptual model and to my knowledge I've never even been in the same city as a double-slit apparatus (much less experienced a parallel universe!) but I do find it ironic that in the time since Physicists reluctantly admitted a non-physical component of what they were modeling the worldview among the educated population seems to have shifted further toward a secular materialism and away from notions of non-physicality. Please don't tell me you bolded the sentence that you bolded because it contained the word "shimmering" in it. The sentence I underlines is completely false and stems from the perils of arm-chair pop-science interpreters wanting to use physics to justify their pre-held beliefs. The double slit experiment revealed that everything has a wave-nature in addition to particle nature. That doesn't make an electron all of a sudden non-physical. All it means is that the structure of that physicality is different than what we thought. There still exists structure. Structure means fixed rules. A wave pattern interfering with itself creates the same distribution of probabilities each time. The thought of a "shimmering soup of energy/matter" casts the idea that anything is possible. But that's not true. You'll never get a light blip in the double-slit experiment at the center of the dark regions. They are dark because the wave interferes with itself and cancels itself along that axis. Our understanding of the nature of physicality has changed, not that an electron is not physical anymore. ... no I bolded it because as I said, it defines the conceptual screen -- it equates the glass of water with the physical model. You are right that the scattering pattern is a physical structure. The remarkable thing about Young's experiment is that the physical structure changes (to a scattering pattern) based on the non-physical factor of the Quantum Observer. The first time this was ever put to me as a metaphysical question over 25 years ago I reconciled this with the idea that the physical factor is the act of observation. What I came to understand later is that variants on the original experiment were done to specifically dispel that idea -- such as leaving the power on at the detectors at the slits but not collecting any data. Bohr & co didn't need those variants to build their model though.
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Aug 1, 2013 17:16:49 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 17:16:49 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. yup, yup .. its called TMT 'round here. dis-satisfied with this moment, so addictively imagining something else? Is that sort of idle imagination TMT? Or would that be more akin to just going with the creative flow? I am in a creative profession so it's not easy for me to tell the difference.
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Aug 1, 2013 17:23:51 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2013 17:23:51 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. I'm not dealing with ideas over here, I'm dealing with the direct experience of no longer seeing a sequence of events that occur in a linearity of Time passing with an implication of a past a future event....my experience is that there is no "time", and that phenomena are constantly shifting in this moment. That is my direct experience, the "idea" that is implicated from this direct experience is that all possibilities are occurring in this moment, and that we shift from possibility to possibility in THIS MOMENT....but that is just an idea, in direct experience, I am only experience one possibility, not multiple possibilities at once. ahh! well then sorry for the minding there Steve! ... ... the article seemed to signal a different interest ...
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Aug 1, 2013 17:40:33 GMT -5
Post by topology on Aug 1, 2013 17:40:33 GMT -5
New experiments confirm this concept. In 2002, scientists carried out an amazing experiment, which showed that pairs of particles knew in advance what its twin would do in the future. Somehow, the particles knew what the researcher would do before it happened, as if there were no space or time between them. More recently (Science 2007), scientists shot particles into an apparatus, and showed they could retroactively change something that had already happened. The particles had to decide what to do when they passed a fork in the apparatus. Later on the experimenter could flip a switch. It turns out what the observer decided at that point, determined what the particle did at the fork in the past. The knowledge in observer's mind is the only thing that determines how they behave. arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1203/1203.4834.pdfHere's an actual paper on the effect being talked about. In this experiment there are four particles. 1 & 2 are entangled together, 3&4 are entangled together. 2& 3 are sent to Victor who decides whether or not to entangle them. 1 is sent to Alice, 4 is sent to Bob. Alice and Bob measure their particle states immediately. Victor delays his decision and uses a quantum random number generator to make the decision about whether or not to entangle. The results show that Alice and Bob's measurements are consistent with the decision being made by Victor, even if Victor's decision is happening "after" the measurement. There are a few criticisms and limitations I would like to point out. (1) No information about Alice and Bob's measurement are supposed to reach Victor. This eliminates the ability for Victor to try to "alter the past" Victor can't see evidence that the entanglement happened and then choose not to entangle. Once an observation is made, its measurement is fixed in stone, and these experiments do not prove otherwise. I suspect that if the information gap were to close between Victor and Alice and Bob, it would destroy the effect. (2) There are issues I have with the claim that a quantum random number generator is truly random. Princeton's global consciousness project uses quantum random number generators and they show evidence of being influenced by global events. noosphere.princeton.edu/ So the numbers are not truly random. If there is any information making it to Victor about what Alice and Bob measured, it is not a free or random choice. Steve, once the past is observed, it cannot be re-written or changed. If there are feedback loops from the future, all it says is that the decisions made in the future must be consistent with past measurements, even if those decisions are products of "random" processes.
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Aug 1, 2013 17:44:55 GMT -5
Post by onehandclapping on Aug 1, 2013 17:44:55 GMT -5
I'm not dealing with ideas over here, I'm dealing with the direct experience of no longer seeing a sequence of events that occur in a linearity of Time passing with an implication of a past a future event....my experience is that there is no "time", and that phenomena are constantly shifting in this moment. That is my direct experience, the "idea" that is implicated from this direct experience is that all possibilities are occurring in this moment, and that we shift from possibility to possibility in THIS MOMENT....but that is just an idea, in direct experience, I am only experience one possibility, not multiple possibilities at once. Isn't this what everyone experiences? Or do you think you are the only one experiencing this "direct-ness"? And for someone who spends so much time in no-time and samadhi, you sure do find time to use your mind to talk about it a whole bunch.....
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Aug 1, 2013 17:49:17 GMT -5
Post by topology on Aug 1, 2013 17:49:17 GMT -5
I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work. I'm not dealing with ideas over here, I'm dealing with the direct experience of no longer seeing a sequence of events that occur in a linearity of Time passing with an implication of a past a future event....my experience is that there is no "time", and that phenomena are constantly shifting in this moment. That is my direct experience, the "idea" that is implicated from this direct experience is that all possibilities are occurring in this moment, and that we shift from possibility to possibility in THIS MOMENT....but that is just an idea, in direct experience, I am only experience one possibility, not multiple possibilities at once. No, the direct experience doesn't implicate the idea. The idea is implicated by the interpreting mental framework. Let the interpreting mental framework go.
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Aug 1, 2013 18:13:49 GMT -5
silver likes this
Post by jazz on Aug 1, 2013 18:13:49 GMT -5
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Aug 1, 2013 18:21:27 GMT -5
Post by onehandclapping on Aug 1, 2013 18:21:27 GMT -5
self promoter....
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jazz
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Posts: 197
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Post by jazz on Aug 1, 2013 18:25:00 GMT -5
I didn't do it!
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Aug 1, 2013 18:29:25 GMT -5
jazz likes this
Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2013 18:29:25 GMT -5
well ok then ... time for the classics!
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