|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:37:53 GMT -5
Post by silver on Aug 1, 2013 11:37:53 GMT -5
But somewhere in a parallel universe, the cat is alive.... It is? Or are we just talking about the idea of a parallel universe to make ourselves feel good or feel like we are steeped in mystery? I've never visited a parallel universe, have you? Heh. Would you know if you had? That's the question.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:45:04 GMT -5
Post by topology on Aug 1, 2013 11:45:04 GMT -5
It is? Or are we just talking about the idea of a parallel universe to make ourselves feel good or feel like we are steeped in mystery? I've never visited a parallel universe, have you? Heh. Would you know if you had? That's the question. For a mind addicted to asking questions and fantasizing about what could be, that might be the question.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:46:39 GMT -5
Post by silver on Aug 1, 2013 11:46:39 GMT -5
Heh. Would you know if you had? That's the question. For a mind addicted to asking questions and fantasizing about what could be, that might be the question. You make less and less sense as time goes on.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:49:38 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 11:49:38 GMT -5
But somewhere in a parallel universe, the cat is alive.... It is? Or are we just talking about the idea of a parallel universe to make ourselves feel good or feel like we are steeped in mystery? I've never visited a parallel universe, have you? I don't think I want to go there with this crowd.. you are a tough crowd. Let's just say that I can relate to Steve and where he's at right now, as I was in the same place a few years back, except I wasn't deliberately meditating and trying to induce samadhi (a word I wasn't even familiar with). All I know is that I had these experiences and then went searching for an explanation, and I also investigated quantum theory along the way. I investigated quite an array of different angles on this, including mental illness and the possibility that my brain was simply "glitching," the possibility I'm just a brain floating in a vat, or a simulation in an ancestor program.. and on and on. Yes, and including "overactive imagination." Ultimately I cannot say, so I won't; I arrived at a place being comfortable not knowing, and relieved to understand it doesn't mean anything about "me." The exploration eventually did lead somewhere, so there's that. I'm not about to discourage Steve in his own exploration. As for making me feel good, NO it did not! I thought I was losing my mind/grip on reality. This drove me nuts for years. It was VERY frustrating being told "oh, you just have an overactive imagination."
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:50:10 GMT -5
Post by Ishtahota on Aug 1, 2013 11:50:10 GMT -5
Time is an illusion, product of the ego world. Spiritually speaking time is how we measure our imperfection. If we were perfected all that we need would be waiting on us just before our need was apparent to us.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:54:41 GMT -5
Post by silver on Aug 1, 2013 11:54:41 GMT -5
Time is an illusion, product of the ego world. Spiritually speaking time is how we measure our imperfection. If we were perfected all that we need would be waiting on us just before our need was apparent to us. For me, there is no perfect. All one can hope for is 'good enough' and still relish that good enough and experience the joy in it.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 11:55:17 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2013 11:55:17 GMT -5
Tell that to Schroedinger's Cat! Meow, Meow, meow, Meow, MEOW!. Sorry Schroe, once you're observed to be dead, that's it big guy. My objection to this thought experiment was always: "well the cat sure knows if it's dead or not!" Hehe ... yes to your point about post-observation top' ... and this whole idea about objects disappearing when you don't look is nice to get peoples attention but it presents a distorted view... What Lanza said other than that about QM though was: "When we reach for a glass of water our sense of space and timing is (almost) always impeccable. They're essential to our every movement and moment. We know they exist because the glass is always there when we reach for it. We forget that the glass is composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of its subatomic particles actually has any physical properties until we observe it." Yes, what I've bolded interposes a conceptual model and to my knowledge I've never even been in the same city as a double-slit apparatus (much less experienced a parallel universe!) but I do find it ironic that in the time since Physicists reluctantly admitted a non-physical component of what they were modeling the worldview among the educated population seems to have shifted further toward a secular materialism and away from notions of non-physicality.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 12:01:25 GMT -5
Post by Ishtahota on Aug 1, 2013 12:01:25 GMT -5
When we can walk on water and heal the sick, I guess we will be perfected.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 12:11:06 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Aug 1, 2013 12:11:06 GMT -5
It is? Or are we just talking about the idea of a parallel universe to make ourselves feel good or feel like we are steeped in mystery? I've never visited a parallel universe, have you? I don't think I want to go there with this crowd.. you are a tough crowd. Let's just say that I can relate to Steve and where he's at right now, as I was in the same place a few years back, except I wasn't deliberately meditating and trying to induce samadhi (a word I wasn't even familiar with). All I know is that I had these experiences and then went searching for an explanation, and I also investigated quantum theory along the way. I investigated quite an array of different angles on this, including mental illness and the possibility that my brain was simply "glitching," the possibility I'm just a brain floating in a vat, or a simulation in an ancestor program.. and on and on. Yes, and including "overactive imagination." Ultimately I cannot say, so I won't; I arrived at a place being comfortable not knowing, and relieved to understand it doesn't mean anything about "me." The exploration eventually did lead somewhere, so there's that. I'm not about to discourage Steve in his own exploration. As for making me feel good, NO it did not! I thought I was losing my mind/grip on reality. This drove me nuts for years. It was VERY frustrating being told "oh, you just have an overactive imagination." SQ: What kind of experiences caused you to feel as if you were losing touch with reality? Were you questioning what's going on, or did woo woo things just start happening sort of out of the blue?
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 12:38:23 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 12:38:23 GMT -5
I don't think I want to go there with this crowd.. you are a tough crowd. Let's just say that I can relate to Steve and where he's at right now, as I was in the same place a few years back, except I wasn't deliberately meditating and trying to induce samadhi (a word I wasn't even familiar with). All I know is that I had these experiences and then went searching for an explanation, and I also investigated quantum theory along the way. I investigated quite an array of different angles on this, including mental illness and the possibility that my brain was simply "glitching," the possibility I'm just a brain floating in a vat, or a simulation in an ancestor program.. and on and on. Yes, and including "overactive imagination." Ultimately I cannot say, so I won't; I arrived at a place being comfortable not knowing, and relieved to understand it doesn't mean anything about "me." The exploration eventually did lead somewhere, so there's that. I'm not about to discourage Steve in his own exploration. As for making me feel good, NO it did not! I thought I was losing my mind/grip on reality. This drove me nuts for years. It was VERY frustrating being told "oh, you just have an overactive imagination." SQ: What kind of experiences caused you to feel as if you were losing touch with reality? Were you questioning what's going on, or did woo woo things just start happening sort of out of the blue? Woo woo out of the blue, which led to questioning what's going on. Kinds of experiences: - Synchronicity, on steroids - Telepathy - Time acting funky - going backward, stopping completely - Space rearranging itself (but only twice -- both times a shared experience with my hubby) Here's a timeline for you, how I could stitch it into a story of cause/effect, if you like... but this may only be a story: About 20 years ago, with no prior history of mental health issues, I experienced a deep depression that lasted for months. At one point, during suicidal ideation, it dawned on me that I am not my thoughts. Whoever was telling me to kill myself, was not me, because that just made no sense. I became fascinated with my thoughts -- but I wouldn't call this meditating. I just started watching them in a detached sort of way, wondering where these thoughts were coming from. This helped me get through the depression. You could say that during this period of time, I learned not to TRUST MY THOUGHTS. But then I wound up manic, or supposedly manic, as my dx was later cleared. For a period of about three months, I was "hallucinating." Everywhere I went, people had holes in their bodies, with white light pouring out of the holes, which was dissolving their bodies. (Note I had no idea about "light bodies" or "light workers" or any new age stuff like that). Some people had lots of holes, and were nearly all bright white light. Some had very few holes, and looked dark. I somehow "knew" this was the light of God or something -- it had a tone and a texture to it. I was in a state of constant euphoria. I felt like a radio receiver picking up everyone's emotions. I thought God was talking to me personally, sending me messages, and these messages would then come true. Etc, etc. It became overwhelming and frightening. So I went on meds and it stopped pretty much instantly -- the doctor later would say the meds worked "too fast, possibly only placebo effect." The doctor later cleared my dx, said I'd had an "identity crisis" (hilarious to me now!), and that it may never happen again. I went off the meds and had no further incidence for 10 years, though I learned to track my mood swings carefully, just in case. You could say that during this period of time, I learned not to TRUST MY EMOTIONS. For years I contented myself with the mental illness model and figured that was what happened to me. During the next 10 years, I experienced all sorts of unexplainable body aches and pains. Eventually after seeing doctor after doctor, I was given a dx of fibromyalgia. The doctor then explained to me it is "all in my head" and I took that literally. I started studying up on the brain and how it works, pain signals, phantom pain, etc. I figured fibro was akin to phantom limb pain, so I could just tell my head "stop, you are not in pain, you're just imagining it." And the pain stopped -- within 3 days. It just magically stopped, and it has not returned. You could say that during this period of time, I learned not to TRUST MY BODILY SENSES. Then about 4 years or so ago, the more recent woo-woo just started happening out of the blue. But it was different than in the past. I kept asking everyone in my life, "Am I manic again?" And was reassured by everyone I was not, in fact, my husband says, "you're the sanest person I know." I even went back to the doctor, just in case, and did not hold anything back. This was different. The syncronicities-on-steroids is the most prevalent and persistent experience. I got in the habit of documenting them, so I wouldn't get stuck in the "woo woo" and could just move on. I can say without a doubt they happen when I am fully present/in a state of "flow." But when they happen, they have a tendency to knock me right out of the present because of the WTF factor. I have about a thousand pages documented. When my therapist asked me for examples, I came bearing photographs. She ruled hallucinations out, because they often happen while I am with my husband, who can't explain it either. I don't want to say definitively this or that is going on, because I could very well be wrong. I do know now they are meaningless, they mean nothing about me, I am not special. Which is a big relief. I would say if pressed that either it's simply a biochemical glitch/hiccup of my brain OR yes, there is a responsive interaction going on between subject and object, that it is true you create your reality, and we are doing it all the time, or THIS is creating it, moment by moment. Or, I'm just being jerked around by THIS. Heh. With breadcrumbs, and I earnestly followed them. Sorry for the novel. I do not think so hard about these things anymore, nor do I continue to document them, though they are still a daily experience. The added thought (especially the self-referential) on top of the experience definitely led to lots of unnecessary suffering. I am now content to just relax, and let it unfold and see what surprises may come next. You know, a lot of people I talked to suggested I am somehow doing this (confirmation bias, etc) but I never had that impression. It really has always felt like it's being done TO me, that I'm just along for the ride.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 12:51:59 GMT -5
Post by topology on Aug 1, 2013 12:51:59 GMT -5
It is? Or are we just talking about the idea of a parallel universe to make ourselves feel good or feel like we are steeped in mystery? I've never visited a parallel universe, have you? I don't think I want to go there with this crowd.. you are a tough crowd. Let's just say that I can relate to Steve and where he's at right now, as I was in the same place a few years back, except I wasn't deliberately meditating and trying to induce samadhi (a word I wasn't even familiar with). All I know is that I had these experiences and then went searching for an explanation, and I also investigated quantum theory along the way. I investigated quite an array of different angles on this, including mental illness and the possibility that my brain was simply "glitching," the possibility I'm just a brain floating in a vat, or a simulation in an ancestor program.. and on and on. Yes, and including "overactive imagination." Ultimately I cannot say, so I won't; I arrived at a place being comfortable not knowing, and relieved to understand it doesn't mean anything about "me." The exploration eventually did lead somewhere, so there's that. I'm not about to discourage Steve in his own exploration. As for making me feel good, NO it did not! I thought I was losing my mind/grip on reality. This drove me nuts for years. It was VERY frustrating being told "oh, you just have an overactive imagination." I don't have a problem with peeps having subjective experiences which SEEM to visit different "dimensions" or subjective realms. I do have problems with making claims about the nature of some external reality. Quantum physics is a mathematical model derived from machine experiments about an external world. The whole "parallel universes" idea in Quantum Mechanics was made up as an arbitrary explanation as to why random processes choose the outcomes that happen. In order to keep symmetry/balance in the mind, the idea of a parallel universes is employed where the random process coming out with an alternate outcomes is used to "explain" the random event. But it suffers from the same problem of explaining why "this" universe is experienced as opposed to some other. There must be some version of you in a parallel universe where the outcome came out differently. This is just mental speculation about a problem only perceived by a mind that can't accept true randomness. It's adding untestable/unnecessary story to try to explain the observations. I got no problem with with all the possible craziness in our subjective experiences. I do have a problem with misconstruing quantum physics to try to justify or explain our subjective experiences. They are what they are and stand on their own.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 13:12:39 GMT -5
Post by topology on Aug 1, 2013 13:12:39 GMT -5
Meow, Meow, meow, Meow, MEOW!. Sorry Schroe, once you're observed to be dead, that's it big guy. My objection to this thought experiment was always: "well the cat sure knows if it's dead or not!" Hehe ... yes to your point about post-observation top' ... and this whole idea about objects disappearing when you don't look is nice to get peoples attention but it presents a distorted view... What Lanza said other than that about QM though was: "When we reach for a glass of water our sense of space and timing is (almost) always impeccable. They're essential to our every movement and moment. We know they exist because the glass is always there when we reach for it. We forget that the glass is composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of its subatomic particles actually has any physical properties until we observe it." Yes, what I've bolded interposes a conceptual model and to my knowledge I've never even been in the same city as a double-slit apparatus (much less experienced a parallel universe!) but I do find it ironic that in the time since Physicists reluctantly admitted a non-physical component of what they were modeling the worldview among the educated population seems to have shifted further toward a secular materialism and away from notions of non-physicality. Please don't tell me you bolded the sentence that you bolded because it contained the word "shimmering" in it. The sentence I underlines is completely false and stems from the perils of arm-chair pop-science interpreters wanting to use physics to justify their pre-held beliefs. The double slit experiment revealed that everything has a wave-nature in addition to particle nature. That doesn't make an electron all of a sudden non-physical. All it means is that the structure of that physicality is different than what we thought. There still exists structure. Structure means fixed rules. A wave pattern interfering with itself creates the same distribution of probabilities each time. The thought of a "shimmering soup of energy/matter" casts the idea that anything is possible. But that's not true. You'll never get a light blip in the double-slit experiment at the center of the dark regions. They are dark because the wave interferes with itself and cancels itself along that axis. Our understanding of the nature of physicality has changed, not that an electron is not physical anymore.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 13:37:35 GMT -5
silver likes this
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2013 13:37:35 GMT -5
My objection to this thought experiment was always: "well the cat sure knows if it's dead or not!" Hehe ... yes to your point about post-observation top' ... and this whole idea about objects disappearing when you don't look is nice to get peoples attention but it presents a distorted view... What Lanza said other than that about QM though was: "When we reach for a glass of water our sense of space and timing is (almost) always impeccable. They're essential to our every movement and moment. We know they exist because the glass is always there when we reach for it. We forget that the glass is composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of its subatomic particles actually has any physical properties until we observe it." Yes, what I've bolded interposes a conceptual model and to my knowledge I've never even been in the same city as a double-slit apparatus (much less experienced a parallel universe!) but I do find it ironic that in the time since Physicists reluctantly admitted a non-physical component of what they were modeling the worldview among the educated population seems to have shifted further toward a secular materialism and away from notions of non-physicality. Please don't tell me you bolded the sentence that you bolded because it contained the word "shimmering" in it. The sentence I underlines is completely false and stems from the perils of arm-chair pop-science interpreters wanting to use physics to justify their pre-held beliefs. The double slit experiment revealed that everything has a wave-nature in addition to particle nature. That doesn't make an electron all of a sudden non-physical. All it means is that the structure of that physicality is different than what we thought. There still exists structure. Structure means fixed rules. A wave pattern interfering with itself creates the same distribution of probabilities each time. The thought of a "shimmering soup of energy/matter" casts the idea that anything is possible. But that's not true. You'll never get a light blip in the double-slit experiment at the center of the dark regions. They are dark because the wave interferes with itself and cancels itself along that axis. Our understanding of the nature of physicality has changed, not that an electron is not physical anymore. You are missing the whole point of the double slit experiment, its not disproving fixed rules, its proving that quantum link between observation and physical reality, and how the observers CHOICE of perception effects the physical reality of both a perceived present and past event. The wole point of the OP is that I'm having a direct experience of time being an illusion of perspective, said another way, time is an internal occurance relative to the experiener or observer, and not an outside force that affects the observer. I posted the article for the one paragraph that talks about empiracal data from physical experimentation that supports what I am experiencing directly. Its funny, I've never seen a thread that evoked such a universally negative reaponse amongst forum members, thats a bit interesting in and of itself lol For what its worth for you guys debating the science, the guy who wrote it is an MD and a Fulbright Scholar that is the leading stem cell researcher in the world...he may end up being best known for finding a cure for blindness caused by Macular Degeneration.... When he was 13 he was already manipulating the DNA sequence of adult chickens to change their color as a school science experiment, interesting guy, and not a fringe pseudo scientist.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 14:00:54 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 14:00:54 GMT -5
My objection to this thought experiment was always: "well the cat sure knows if it's dead or not!" Hehe ... yes to your point about post-observation top' ... and this whole idea about objects disappearing when you don't look is nice to get peoples attention but it presents a distorted view... What Lanza said other than that about QM though was: "When we reach for a glass of water our sense of space and timing is (almost) always impeccable. They're essential to our every movement and moment. We know they exist because the glass is always there when we reach for it. We forget that the glass is composed of a shimmering swarm of matter/energy. The results of quantum physics, such as the two-slit experiment, tell us that not a single one of its subatomic particles actually has any physical properties until we observe it." Yes, what I've bolded interposes a conceptual model and to my knowledge I've never even been in the same city as a double-slit apparatus (much less experienced a parallel universe!) but I do find it ironic that in the time since Physicists reluctantly admitted a non-physical component of what they were modeling the worldview among the educated population seems to have shifted further toward a secular materialism and away from notions of non-physicality. Please don't tell me you bolded the sentence that you bolded because it contained the word "shimmering" in it. The sentence I underlines is completely false and stems from the perils of arm-chair pop-science interpreters wanting to use physics to justify their pre-held beliefs. The double slit experiment revealed that everything has a wave-nature in addition to particle nature. That doesn't make an electron all of a sudden non-physical. All it means is that the structure of that physicality is different than what we thought. There still exists structure. Structure means fixed rules. A wave pattern interfering with itself creates the same distribution of probabilities each time. The thought of a "shimmering soup of energy/matter" casts the idea that anything is possible. But that's not true. You'll never get a light blip in the double-slit experiment at the center of the dark regions. They are dark because the wave interferes with itself and cancels itself along that axis. Our understanding of the nature of physicality has changed, not that an electron is not physical anymore. No, I'd never say "anything is possible." What manifests is that which is most relevant and logical to perspective, and that which takes the least amount of energy. A glass of water is not going to turn magically into a dead cat; that is neither relevant or logical nor energy efficient. Now, the glass COULD slip out of the hand and shatter into a million pieces, causing the cat that's napping on the floor to leap up, startled, bolt out the door and run into traffic where it gets run over -- because that would be relevant and logical... it would just require a bit more energy to pull it off.
|
|
|
Time
Aug 1, 2013 14:14:28 GMT -5
Post by serpentqueen on Aug 1, 2013 14:14:28 GMT -5
I don't think I want to go there with this crowd.. you are a tough crowd. Let's just say that I can relate to Steve and where he's at right now, as I was in the same place a few years back, except I wasn't deliberately meditating and trying to induce samadhi (a word I wasn't even familiar with). All I know is that I had these experiences and then went searching for an explanation, and I also investigated quantum theory along the way. I investigated quite an array of different angles on this, including mental illness and the possibility that my brain was simply "glitching," the possibility I'm just a brain floating in a vat, or a simulation in an ancestor program.. and on and on. Yes, and including "overactive imagination." Ultimately I cannot say, so I won't; I arrived at a place being comfortable not knowing, and relieved to understand it doesn't mean anything about "me." The exploration eventually did lead somewhere, so there's that. I'm not about to discourage Steve in his own exploration. As for making me feel good, NO it did not! I thought I was losing my mind/grip on reality. This drove me nuts for years. It was VERY frustrating being told "oh, you just have an overactive imagination." I don't have a problem with peeps having subjective experiences which SEEM to visit different "dimensions" or subjective realms. I do have problems with making claims about the nature of some external reality. Quantum physics is a mathematical model derived from machine experiments about an external world. The whole "parallel universes" idea in Quantum Mechanics was made up as an arbitrary explanation as to why random processes choose the outcomes that happen. In order to keep symmetry/balance in the mind, the idea of a parallel universes is employed where the random process coming out with an alternate outcomes is used to "explain" the random event. But it suffers from the same problem of explaining why "this" universe is experienced as opposed to some other. There must be some version of you in a parallel universe where the outcome came out differently. This is just mental speculation about a problem only perceived by a mind that can't accept true randomness. It's adding untestable/unnecessary story to try to explain the observations. I got no problem with with all the possible craziness in our subjective experiences. I do have a problem with misconstruing quantum physics to try to justify or explain our subjective experiences. They are what they are and stand on their own. I agree with you, I suppose, and even if one jumped on to another timeline, one would have no way of knowing... though it is pretty cool to ponder parallel universes. In one universe, I left my current job 5 years ago, and now I'm a VP somewhere, with no time to post on forums. In another, I stayed married to my first husband and never met my current husband. In another, I never got married at all, and am childless. In another, I pursued dancing and I'm now a world-class dancer. In yet another, my parents never moved and I grew up in a different area of the country, maybe I never went to college. In another, I got in a car accident and I'm paralyzed. In another, I committed suicide. In yet another..... I was born to different parents, in a different country, I could even be a different gender.......... hmmm..... In each of these, I am slightly different, and as you map each branch, you can see how I would have totally different personality, life experiences, ideologies, beliefs... maybe there's no need to jump timelines? Maybe YOU are just another version of me? Yes, yes... "just a play of ideas"... I know. I'm bored. Slow day today at work.
|
|