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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 2:03:57 GMT -5
You have a strong focus on the term "resonance". Do you find any value in dissonance? Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required? amit Required for what? Being alive and having experiences? No, realization is not required. Being aware, intelligent, conscious, intuitive, present, clear, mature, insightful, wise? Yeah I would say it's hard to be any of those things without making a few realizations along the way about the way. What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance. |
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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 2:07:03 GMT -5
Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required? amit Required for what? Being alive and having experiences? No, realization is not required. Being aware, intelligent, conscious, intuitive, present, clear, mature, insightful, wise? Yeah I would say it's hard to be any of those things without making a few realizations along the way about the way this whole picture show works. What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance. Phone posting error corrected in place. |
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Post by amit on Jul 2, 2013 2:48:12 GMT -5
Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required? amit Required for what? Being alive and having experiences? No, realization is not required. Being aware, intelligent, conscious, intuitive, present, clear, mature, insightful, wise? Yeah I would say it's hard to be any of those things without making a few realizations along the way about the way. What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance. Hi topology, Realization was being spoken about regarding the search for enlightenment, so required in the sense that whatever transcends the idea of that separate self needs to be seen, rather than not required as in the nondual perspective that it is already Oneness not seeing so not seeing does not have to be transcended. "What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance." Can you give an specific example? amit amit |
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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 8:18:44 GMT -5
Required for what? Being alive and having experiences? No, realization is not required. Being aware, intelligent, conscious, intuitive, present, clear, mature, insightful, wise? Yeah I would say it's hard to be any of those things without making a few realizations along the way about the way. What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance. Hi topology, Realization was being spoken about regarding the search for enlightenment, so required in the sense that whatever transcends the idea of that separate self needs to be seen, rather than not required as in the nondual perspective that it is already Oneness not seeing so not seeing does not have to be transcended. "What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance." Can you give an specific example? amit amit In 2004 I had an event which reframed a lot of things for more. I met the TAT group, or at least Art Ticknor, in 2000 after a breakup of a very codependent and abusive relationship. Art introduced me to the teachings of Richard Rose (and other enlightenment teachers) and practices of self-observation and confrontation. I was extremely unhappy (dissonance) and spent nights in coffee shops journaling and reviewing the life events that lead up to me being the way I was. I realized several patterns which helped me understand how I had set myself up for this codependent relationship. I was very insecure. While doing my time with Art and TAT folks I became an intentional seeker of Enlightenment. I read tons of books and explored tons of material. In 2002 I graduated with my BS and moved from Pittsburgh to Nashua, NH to work at an Internet startup. I was still unhappy and depressive, still questing after enlightenment. A year and a half later I went to Tom Brown's tracker school and did a week of being in nature. There were several exercises we performed which had a tremendous effect on my nervous system. Slow walking to lower the internal bio-rhythms, paying attention to the peripheral vision and seeing everything at once in a 3D panorama. When I got back from that week, I was restless and discontent. I hated working at what I felt like was becoming a meaningless job, I just wanted to go back to the woods. I had very recently read a book called "Laws Of Form" by G Spencer Brown. The combination of all my seeking, my emotional discontent, having gone and experienced being in the woods, feeling trapped and stuck at my job and just wanting life to be meaningful caused something inside me snap. I spent two days trying to make myself work, but couldn't. Finally I got up and started pacing outside my office building letting everything boil over emotionally inside me and I became very angry at everything. What ever energy block I was stuck on collapsed and my energy state shifted. My vision switched over to the 3D panorama and I literally felt energy shooting out of my shoulder blades as if I had wings. My conscious experience became fluid and time lapsed. As birds would fly by I felt them move through me. In the sky I would see them leaves trails of black as color would slowly fill in after their passing. Eventually the event subsided and I returned from that state back to the situation I was unhappy with. I quit my job and moved back to Lubbock, Tx. I realized several things from that experience. This experience made real the understanding that I am not a body living in the context of the world, I am consciousness and the body and world live in me. Objects are only appearances, hallucinatory patterns within consciousness. The perceived experience felt fluid, very much like it was a chemical exchange occurring, but then there was that which was having the experience, a vast perceptive faculty, a backdrop of silence and stillness that could be more clearly seen when the phenomenal experience was going wonky. I had believed that enlightenment made you egoless. But if anything was an enlightenment experience, I thought this was it... But the Ego was still fully intact, and if anything I became very full of myself and arrogant thinking I was becoming enlightened. But something inside me whispered in my eat and got me to see that this wasn't it either. If this wasn't enlightenment then there was no enlightenment, or nothing I could ever do to become enlightened. This event shifted the understanding of what this experience is and changed how I related to it. It foregrounded my ego in my own ears and attuned me to how I was not humble. The change in perspective didn't fix my problems, which is what I was hoping it would do. It only gave me a few more tools and and awakened a few more sensitivities to help figure out what was going on. The game shifted from seeking an idealized state to simply wanting to become more self-aware of my psychology as that was the root of how my experience manifested and created the story that plays out. The story doesn't end there, but It was the most pivotal event which facilitated many realizations. The dissonance is pivotal in causing a collapse in old belief structures. We believe we are seeing the actual world. We might resonate with the idea that it's all an illusion or a dream, but it's just a patch job over our visceral interaction. Knock on a wall and it feels solid. We are convicted that this world exists and that there are objects, etc. But when the experience starts melting and becomes fluid like a Hallucination losing it's coherence, you get direct evidence to the contrary. The world we experience and think we see is a mirage appearing in ________? The physical assumption collapses. It's realized that everything is just in a state of seeming. The wall FEELS-LIKE it is solid. Is it really? I don't know. I don't think about it anymore. There are no objects, objecthood is part of the hallucination. That was realized in a profound and fundamental way. My psychology creates the story that plays out, that was realized in a fundamental way. I saw it in an instant and the mind has been playing catch-up ever since. Still processing my psychology. Still integrating the realizations into the way I relate to my experience. But the dissonance happens when old belief structures are being challenged and old coping mechanisms start failing to cope with a changing experience. The dissonance is the clearing out of the old, breaking up it's strangle hold. Resonance happens when the existing structure is able to resonate, dissonance is necessary for the structure to evolve or collapse. Is realization necessary? I think it boils down to epistemology. How do you know what you know? Is it from belief of external testimony? (which is what resonance can facilitate developing) or is it from experience and directly perceiving the way the world is, even then confirmation might be at play and dissonance is essential in revealing confirmation bias. Purely relying on resonance doesn't challenge false assumptions which may be skewing the understanding of what is happening in the experience. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 10:40:25 GMT -5
I doubt that Niz would suggest that realization is not necessary. I doubt that any good teacher would. I would, however, be interested in a quote from any teacher who does. Hi enigma, A friend has "I am that" at the mo but will see. amit Laughter has been reading it quite intensely. Maybe he can find something. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 10:43:01 GMT -5
Realization is how mind is informed about the experience. No. Realization is the negation of the thoughts and beliefs about some certain aspect of experience. They both sound the same to me. |
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Post by Beingist on Jul 2, 2013 10:45:38 GMT -5
No. Realization is the negation of the thoughts and beliefs about some certain aspect of experience. They both sound the same to me. Well, I'd ask you what you meant by that, but since you're now on my case about questions being misconceived, I suppose all I can do, is dismiss your response as simply enigmatic. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 10:58:07 GMT -5
Hi enigma, A friend has "I am that" at the mo but will see. amit Hi enigma, "The true guru will never humiliate you, nor will he estrange you from yourself. He will constantly bring you back to the fact of your inherent perfection and encourage you to seek within. He knows you need nothing, not even him, and is never tired of reminding you. But the self-appointed guru is more concerned with himself than with his disciples." --Sri Nisargadatta Mahara This is an example of the the sort of contradiction referred to. On the one hand he talks about knowing the seeker needs nothing without qualifying that statement by referring to the need to realize, and in the same paragraph talks about encouragement to inquire within. There may well be many similar references among the multitude of nondual teachings out there. If I come across any more I'll post them. amit I don't see a contradiction. He knows you need nothing, but this must be realized. IOW, it's just a belief that something is needed. To then conclude that it can't be true that nothing is needed, is what we refer to around these parts as TMT. It's necessary to realize that you are already free. That's all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 11:07:07 GMT -5
Hi enigma, "The true guru will never humiliate you, nor will he estrange you from yourself. He will constantly bring you back to the fact of your inherent perfection and encourage you to seek within. He knows you need nothing, not even him, and is never tired of reminding you. But the self-appointed guru is more concerned with himself than with his disciples." --Sri Nisargadatta Mahara This is an example of the the sort of contradiction referred to. On the one hand he talks about knowing the seeker needs nothing without qualifying that statement by referring to the need to realize, and in the same paragraph talks about encouragement to inquire within. There may well be many similar references among the multitude of nondual teachings out there. If I come across any more I'll post them. amit I don't see a contradiction. He knows you need nothing, but this must be realized. IOW, it's just a belief that something is needed. To then conclude that it can't be true that nothing is needed, is what we refer to around these parts as TMT. It's necessary to realize that you are already free. That's all. Hmmm, we are 'already' free... Let me think about that  |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 11:12:21 GMT -5
The falling away stems from seeing that what was believed to be "so" is not actually so. The seeing entails an experience. funny thing, I drew a blank on the word 'experience', and had to googletron it .. :direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge :practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity :the conscious events that make up an individual life :something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through :the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality is a realization an 'experience'? I guess so, but it didn't seem like the kind of experiences I'm used to having. there was nothing to it. like a curtain was opened and light came in. but after the fact, I remember thinking "how could you have been so stupid?" "<smiles>" See, this is the sort of thing that tells me one has in fact had a realization. It becomes clear in the description even if there is not actual clarity as to what happened because there are no imaginary stories about it. It isn't actually an experience as it does not occur as an "event" in time: a term common to all but one of the definitions you gave. The realization itself does not include memories and a story about it cannot be told because it is not of mind. It's not the acquisition of some knowledge. It does not consist of ideas and does not occur in time as an experience. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 11:17:33 GMT -5
You have a strong focus on the term "resonance". Do you find any value in dissonance? Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required?amit This is what I overheard him say to you: If the mind is not informed with that initial realization, when the mind boots back up it picks up right where it left off and dismisses the experience as "I got lost in daydreaming, time to get focussed on the task at hand". Realizations is the force that pushes on the first domino (or house of cards), causing it to topple. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/2853/advaita-splits?page=3&scrollTo=128605#ixzz2XuCqRTjN |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 11:17:54 GMT -5
funny thing, I drew a blank on the word 'experience', and had to googletron it .. :direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge :practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity :the conscious events that make up an individual life :something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through :the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality is a realization an 'experience'? I guess so, but it didn't seem like the kind of experiences I'm used to having. there was nothing to it. like a curtain was opened and light came in. but after the fact, I remember thinking "how could you have been so stupid?" "<smiles>" See, this is the sort of thing that tells me one has in fact had a realization. It becomes clear in the description even if there is not actual clarity as to what happened because there are no imaginary stories about it. It isn't actually an experience as it does not occur as an "event" in time: a term common to all but one of the definitions you gave. The realization itself does not include memories and a story about it cannot be told because it is not of mind. It's not the acquisition of some knowledge. It does not consist of ideas and does not occur in time as an experience. Seems to me your pointing at what 'IS'... It knows experiences but it is itself not an experience. It knows thoughts and memories but it is itself not memories or thoughts. It knows knowledge but it is itself not knowledge. It knows time but it is itself timeless. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 11:27:51 GMT -5
Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required? amit Required for what? Being alive and having experiences? No, realization is not required. Being aware, intelligent, conscious, intuitive, present, clear, mature, insightful, wise? Yeah I would say it's hard to be any of those things without making a few realizations along the way about the way. What I have often found is that insight is often preceded by cognitive dissonance. It's from our dissonant experiences that we are challenged to find a deeper understanding, a deeper resonance. I agree, which is why I don't see it as something to be avoided, even on forums. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 11:44:01 GMT -5
I don't see a contradiction. He knows you need nothing, but this must be realized. IOW, it's just a belief that something is needed. To then conclude that it can't be true that nothing is needed, is what we refer to around these parts as TMT. It's necessary to realize that you are already free. That's all. Hmmm, we are 'already' free... Let me think about that ***Prison door makes loud, metallic SLAM! as it closes again***  |
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Post by enigma on Jul 2, 2013 11:47:42 GMT -5
See, this is the sort of thing that tells me one has in fact had a realization. It becomes clear in the description even if there is not actual clarity as to what happened because there are no imaginary stories about it. It isn't actually an experience as it does not occur as an "event" in time: a term common to all but one of the definitions you gave. The realization itself does not include memories and a story about it cannot be told because it is not of mind. It's not the acquisition of some knowledge. It does not consist of ideas and does not occur in time as an experience. Seems to me your pointing at what 'IS'... It knows experiences but it is itself not an experience. It knows thoughts and memories but it is itself not memories or thoughts. It knows knowledge but it is itself not knowledge. It knows time but it is itself timeless. Yes, it is the view from that which is viewing. It's also what we've been calling the impersonal perspective. The boundaries of mind can be seen from that position because the seer is not mind. |
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