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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 9:54:07 GMT -5
No. Realization is a process of simplifying ingredients to more accurately represent the original. No. Realization is a series of propositions organized so that the final proposition is a conclusion which is intended to follow logically from the preceding propositions, which function as premises. Or no, wait. That's an argument. No. Realization is a process of making what is not actual into what is actual.
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Post by Beingist on Jul 1, 2013 10:02:16 GMT -5
No. Realization is a series of propositions organized so that the final proposition is a conclusion which is intended to follow logically from the preceding propositions, which function as premises. Or no, wait. That's an argument. No. Realization is a process of making what is not actual into what is actual. No. A Realization is a proposition antecedently supposed or proved; something previously stated or assumed as the basis of further argument; a condition; a supposition. No, wait ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 10:49:40 GMT -5
No. Realization is a set of invisible numchucks, useful for subduing black Ninjas wielding Truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 11:00:40 GMT -5
Yesterday I was standing over a tee shot on a par three, made my customary two waggles of the club (which usually kickstarts the swing), and the swing didn't start. Hmmm... something's up...I stepped back from the ball, went through my preshot routine (seeing the shot), and noticed pine boughs waving at me from a stand of trees behind the green. Put the 8 iron back in the bag, and grabbed a 7 iron. Moved the ball back in my stance to keep the trajectory of the shot lower, two waggles and a- Heeeeeyyyy (3/4 slow backswing) Jude (strike of the ball) Don't make it bad (watching the flight of the ball), and the ball skidded to a stop ten feet from the hole...
Dunno if that hitch-in-my-giddy-up was a realization, a sensualization, a reaggregation, or what. But the game came to me in that moment. Everything just kinda slowed way down...
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Post by amit on Jul 1, 2013 12:42:36 GMT -5
I doubt that Niz would suggest that realization is not necessary. I doubt that any good teacher would. I would, however, be interested in a quote from any teacher who does. Hi enigma, A friend has "I am that" at the mo but will see. amit Hi enigma, "The true guru will never humiliate you, nor will he estrange you from yourself. He will constantly bring you back to the fact of your inherent perfection and encourage you to seek within. He knows you need nothing, not even him, and is never tired of reminding you. But the self-appointed guru is more concerned with himself than with his disciples." --Sri Nisargadatta Mahara This is an example of the the sort of contradiction referred to. On the one hand he talks about knowing the seeker needs nothing without qualifying that statement by referring to the need to realize, and in the same paragraph talks about encouragement to inquire within. There may well be many similar references among the multitude of nondual teachings out there. If I come across any more I'll post them. amit
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Post by amit on Jul 1, 2013 13:03:19 GMT -5
Hi topology, There appears to be what I would call a resonance. It could be with an idea or a person. It seems like anything can trigger it really because there seems to be no rules. The details of each resonance seem to be as unique as the character feeling/experiencing it. If one questions characters who feel they have had such, it may be possible to build up a picture of what you call "classes". From those I have questioned about it, including some who give talks to large meetings, it is described as a profound event in which the separate character is no more, along with a feeling/experience that there had never been a separate person. It happened to a character feeling that they were separate one second, and no-one separate there the next. What is the nature of such a resonance? Most found it very difficult to describe but could say something about what it was not. Most said it had nothing to do with the mind, as in making sense of something, although for most the mind kicked in again to consider the event to try and somehow assimilate it. The latter may link with your consideration 1) and 2) above. For one interpretation of Advaita no realization is required. For that interpretation both the end of the feeling of disconnection and the dropping away or the separate self are irrelevant as it is already Oneness arising as both. amit amit Realization is how mind is informed about the experience. In the recognition of experiencing the loss of a sense of separation it is realized that there never was a separate person to begin with. That realization then cascades as the mind reinterprets (or drops its interpretation of) everything it thought about the nature of existence and personal identity. If the mind is not informed with that initial realization, when the mind boots back up it picks up right where it left off and dismisses the experience as "I got lost in daydreaming, time to get focussed on the task at hand". Realizations is the force that pushes on the first domino (or house of cards), causing it to topple. Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. If there is a resonance that realization is required then I would guess your description of realization may well be shared by such characters. If on the other hand there is a resonance that nothing is required, including realization, for reasons mentioned in other threads, I guess it would be irrelevant. One would need to ask to get a better idea. Where an element of self inquiry may be interesting however is in considering what it may be about characters that result in realization required rather than not required. Such an inquiry would be of academic interest only for the "not required" characters as it is already Oneness as both. Do you fall into either camp or neither? amit
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Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 14:56:23 GMT -5
No. Realization is the negation of the thoughts and beliefs about some certain aspect of experience. yeah that's my understanding as well. nothing new is added, nothing learned or "informed", just a previously unseen blockage falls away. The falling away stems from seeing that what was believed to be "so" is not actually so. The seeing entails an experience.
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Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 14:58:00 GMT -5
Realization is how mind is informed about the experience. In the recognition of experiencing the loss of a sense of separation it is realized that there never was a separate person to begin with. That realization then cascades as the mind reinterprets (or drops its interpretation of) everything it thought about the nature of existence and personal identity. If the mind is not informed with that initial realization, when the mind boots back up it picks up right where it left off and dismisses the experience as "I got lost in daydreaming, time to get focussed on the task at hand". Realizations is the force that pushes on the first domino (or house of cards), causing it to topple. Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. If there is a resonance that realization is required then I would guess your description of realization may well be shared by such characters. If on the other hand there is a resonance that nothing is required, including realization, for reasons mentioned in other threads, I guess it would be irrelevant. One would need to ask to get a better idea. Where an element of self inquiry may be interesting however is in considering what it may be about characters that result in realization required rather than not required. Such an inquiry would be of academic interest only for the "not required" characters as it is already Oneness as both. Do you fall into either camp or neither? amit We're going camping?
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Post by silver on Jul 1, 2013 15:07:07 GMT -5
Yesterday I was standing over a tee shot on a par three, made my customary two waggles of the club (which usually kickstarts the swing), and the swing didn't start. Hmmm... something's up...I stepped back from the ball, went through my preshot routine (seeing the shot), and noticed pine boughs waving at me from a stand of trees behind the green. Put the 8 iron back in the bag, and grabbed a 7 iron. Moved the ball back in my stance to keep the trajectory of the shot lower, two waggles and a- Heeeeeyyyy (3/4 slow backswing) Jude (strike of the ball) Don't make it bad (watching the flight of the ball), and the ball skidded to a stop ten feet from the hole... Dunno if that hitch-in-my-giddy-up was a realization, a sensualization, a reaggregation, or what. But the game came to me in that moment. Everything just kinda slowed way down... Gee, you make golf sound fun (I hate golf) and even interesting~*
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Post by amit on Jul 1, 2013 15:08:22 GMT -5
Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. If there is a resonance that realization is required then I would guess your description of realization may well be shared by such characters. If on the other hand there is a resonance that nothing is required, including realization, for reasons mentioned in other threads, I guess it would be irrelevant. One would need to ask to get a better idea. Where an element of self inquiry may be interesting however is in considering what it may be about characters that result in realization required rather than not required. Such an inquiry would be of academic interest only for the "not required" characters as it is already Oneness as both. Do you fall into either camp or neither? amit We're going camping? Hi topology, In a manner of speaking but never mind. amit
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Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 15:15:17 GMT -5
We're going camping? Hi topology, In a manner of speaking but never mind. amit You have a strong focus on the term "resonance". Do you find any value in dissonance?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 15:39:00 GMT -5
yeah that's my understanding as well. nothing new is added, nothing learned or "informed", just a previously unseen blockage falls away. The falling away stems from seeing that what was believed to be "so" is not actually so. The seeing entails an experience. funny thing, I drew a blank on the word 'experience', and had to googletron it .. :direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge :practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity :the conscious events that make up an individual life :something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through :the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality is a realization an 'experience'? I guess so, but it didn't seem like the kind of experiences I'm used to having. there was nothing to it. like a curtain was opened and light came in. but after the fact, I remember thinking "how could you have been so stupid?" "<smiles>"
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Post by topology on Jul 1, 2013 15:53:35 GMT -5
The falling away stems from seeing that what was believed to be "so" is not actually so. The seeing entails an experience. funny thing, I drew a blank on the word 'experience', and had to googletron it .. :direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge :practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity :the conscious events that make up an individual life :something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through :the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality is a realization an 'experience'? I guess so, but it didn't seem like the kind of experiences I'm used to having. there was nothing to it. like a curtain was opened and light came in. but after the fact, I remember thinking "how could you have been so stupid?" "<smiles>" Yeah, once you see something, you typically can't un-see it... When Archimedes sat down in the tub displacing water of equal volume as the volume occupied by his body, he saw it and cried EUREKA!. I would call that a realization. A flash of insight which the mind has to catch up and process. But the history books seem to have forgotten the waif Sedemichra who tried to point out to Archimedes that he could still be fooled with counterfeit coins with the proper proportion of silver and lead in the mixture.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 15:54:53 GMT -5
Yesterday I was standing over a tee shot on a par three, made my customary two waggles of the club (which usually kickstarts the swing), and the swing didn't start. Hmmm... something's up...I stepped back from the ball, went through my preshot routine (seeing the shot), and noticed pine boughs waving at me from a stand of trees behind the green. Put the 8 iron back in the bag, and grabbed a 7 iron. Moved the ball back in my stance to keep the trajectory of the shot lower, two waggles and a- Heeeeeyyyy (3/4 slow backswing) Jude (strike of the ball) Don't make it bad (watching the flight of the ball), and the ball skidded to a stop ten feet from the hole... Dunno if that hitch-in-my-giddy-up was a realization, a sensualization, a reaggregation, or what. But the game came to me in that moment. Everything just kinda slowed way down... Gee, you make golf sound fun (I hate golf) and even interesting~* It is fun. Taking a walk in nature with some sticks and a ball. Up the hill, down the hill. Feeling the subtleties of the earth beneath the feet, and the clues it gives about all kinds of things regarding the next shot. Fresh air, wind, sun (yesterday was a Chamber of Commerce day here), trees, grass, wildlife. Good friends. Laughs. Doesn't get much better than that.
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Post by amit on Jul 2, 2013 1:40:20 GMT -5
Hi topology, In a manner of speaking but never mind. amit You have a strong focus on the term "resonance". Do you find any value in dissonance? Hi topology, Yes resonance is a useful term to describe a connection which does not have to be based on believing that what one resonates with is the truth. There is value in dissonance in the sense that it indicates that which one does not resonate with:) Do you regard realization as required? amit
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