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Post by tzujanli on Jul 6, 2013 13:54:55 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Thanks for the clarification ZD. Seems to me that disapproval of gnosis is like spitting into the wind. Said another way, I don't see how such a disapproval could ever be aimed at anything other than an episteme of a gnosis. Who do you suspect of disapproving of "Gnosis"? I approve of Gnosis, within the general meaning of the word, though it might not fit your belief model.. Be well.. 'Bump' Keep up.. Be well..
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Post by enigma on Jul 6, 2013 17:32:29 GMT -5
IOW, if one thinks one can think oneself to enlightenment, then one can? Hi enigma, Considering what has been resonated with may consolidate the resonance but is not the resonance. Without the resonance, considering the implications in terms of how they may challenge ones character and beliefs would be purely academic I imagine. One would have to ask people about their experience to get a better idea of what may have happened or be happening for them. MKaybe it's been asked and answered already, but what is resonance to you? I don't believe in something called truth.
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Post by amit on Jul 7, 2013 1:15:50 GMT -5
Hi enigma, Considering what has been resonated with may consolidate the resonance but is not the resonance. Without the resonance, considering the implications in terms of how they may challenge ones character and beliefs would be purely academic I imagine. One would have to ask people about their experience to get a better idea of what may have happened or be happening for them. MKaybe it's been asked and answered already, but what is resonance to you? I don't believe in something called truth. Hi enigma, The nearest I can get is to compare it with unconditional love. The feeling one gets when looking at ones beloved knowing there is love no matter what. I don't mean to be over-dramatic but it really is difficult to explain. Another way of saying it may be the love one would feel if something came along that would resolve ones fundamental profound concerns. What does it mean for you? "I don't believe in something called truth". Understood. Thanks. amit
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Post by enigma on Jul 7, 2013 2:34:05 GMT -5
MKaybe it's been asked and answered already, but what is resonance to you? I don't believe in something called truth. Hi enigma, The nearest I can get is to compare it with unconditional love. The feeling one gets when looking at ones beloved knowing there is love no matter what. I don't mean to be over-dramatic but it really is difficult to explain. Another way of saying it may be the love one would feel if something came along that would resolve ones fundamental profound concerns. What does it mean for you? "I don't believe in something called truth". Understood. Thanks. amit To me, it means agreement.
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Post by andrew on Jul 7, 2013 2:38:51 GMT -5
amit,
Would you say that there is suffering, or that suffering is an illusion? And would you say that there is individuality, or that individuality is an illusion?
Thanks.
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Post by amit on Jul 7, 2013 11:07:36 GMT -5
amit, Would you say that there is suffering, or that suffering is an illusion? And would you say that there is individuality, or that individuality is an illusion? Thanks. Hi Andrew, Here are some considerations about the subject in terms of what seems to flow from the concept "All is One" and are put no higher than that. They are not presented here as truth or a belief in a truth. The term Oneness is not meant to indicate the existence of some sort of entity but merely that, despite the appearance of difference, All is One. In that appearance individuality and suffering arise. Both are no more than a very convincing illusion of difference where there is none. There is no evidence for any of this (save maybe symbiosis/balance extended to the infinite scale concerning suffering) it is based simply on exploratory considerations of the idea "All is One" which itself arises in the illusion of difference. amit
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Post by amit on Jul 7, 2013 11:12:06 GMT -5
Hi enigma, The nearest I can get is to compare it with unconditional love. The feeling one gets when looking at ones beloved knowing there is love no matter what. I don't mean to be over-dramatic but it really is difficult to explain. Another way of saying it may be the love one would feel if something came along that would resolve ones fundamental profound concerns. What does it mean for you? "I don't believe in something called truth". Understood. Thanks. amit To me, it means agreement. Hi enigma, Understood. Thanks, It is nothing like that here. amit
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Post by andrew on Jul 7, 2013 15:27:58 GMT -5
amit, Would you say that there is suffering, or that suffering is an illusion? And would you say that there is individuality, or that individuality is an illusion? Thanks. Hi Andrew, Here are some considerations about the subject in terms of what seems to flow from the concept "All is One" and are put no higher than that. They are not presented here as truth or a belief in a truth. The term Oneness is not meant to indicate the existence of some sort of entity but merely that, despite the appearance of difference, All is One. In that appearance individuality and suffering arise. Both are no more than a very convincing illusion of difference where there is none. There is no evidence for any of this (save maybe symbiosis/balance extended to the infinite scale concerning suffering) it is based simply on exploratory considerations of the idea "All is One" which itself arises in the illusion of difference. amit Thanks amit. On the basis that you present i.e. that individuality and suffering is a convincing illusion of difference where there is none, what would you say has to happen in order that the illusion of suffering no longer applies to the illusionary individual? Or to put more simply, did something happen (or seem to happen) to make your suffering end?
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Post by laughter on Jul 7, 2013 15:55:14 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Who do you suspect of disapproving of "Gnosis"? I approve of Gnosis, within the general meaning of the word, though it might not fit your belief model.. Be well.. 'Bump' Keep up.. Be well.. wow and you told me to detach ... attend the words on the page Bob: there's no such thing as disapproving of a gnosis ... if a Zen Master fails an answer to a koan it's just not the right answer ... that's not "disapproval".
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Post by amit on Jul 8, 2013 1:42:08 GMT -5
Hi Andrew, Here are some considerations about the subject in terms of what seems to flow from the concept "All is One" and are put no higher than that. They are not presented here as truth or a belief in a truth. The term Oneness is not meant to indicate the existence of some sort of entity but merely that, despite the appearance of difference, All is One. In that appearance individuality and suffering arise. Both are no more than a very convincing illusion of difference where there is none. There is no evidence for any of this (save maybe symbiosis/balance extended to the infinite scale concerning suffering) it is based simply on exploratory considerations of the idea "All is One" which itself arises in the illusion of difference. amit Thanks amit. On the basis that you present i.e. that individuality and suffering is a convincing illusion of difference where there is none, what would you say has to happen in order that the illusion of suffering no longer applies to the illusionary individual? Or to put more simply, did something happen (or seem to happen) to make your suffering end? Hi Andrew, For me the feeling of disconnection from source or whatever term is used for something like wholeness or completeness, was a profound discomfort. I cant remember what term I used for that. It probably varied but I now use the term Oneness. I don't know what needs to happen for others as characters vary but the following is an attempt to describe what apparently happened for me:- "Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. Whilst looking for the truth, which I believed would end my feeling of disconnection, I discovered Soren Kierkegaard which ended the search for the truth. The feeling of disconnection remained however but I was no longer bound by having to discover truth in order to end it. There was no longer anything like what you call "false assumptions" so I was no longer limited in the way you describe. I considered many spiritual paths and practices on the level of opening myself to what was being offered and see what happens without believing in or resonating with any of them. There were various experiences, some profound, but they didn't last and none ended the feeling of disconnection. It was amazing that during that period I never came across the concept "All is One" or maybe I did but was not ready to hear it. One fateful day it was heard and a strong resonance occurred which resulted in an intense focus on the concept to understand its implications. These can be very challenging as we have seen from reactions on this forum and elsewhere and were certainly challenging to the character amit. But after a number of years the implications were assimilated and the end of the feeling of disconnection, which started at the time of the original resonance, was consolidated. You could call some of what happened in those "number of years" a process of self inquiry when parts of the character that objected to the concept were overcome, but the main effect was the seeing that becoming enlightened/realized/awakened/liberated was not required by the concept because it was already Oneness not seeing" The only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering. Can you say something about where you are at with this kind of stuff? amit
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Post by andrew on Jul 8, 2013 3:55:20 GMT -5
Thanks amit. On the basis that you present i.e. that individuality and suffering is a convincing illusion of difference where there is none, what would you say has to happen in order that the illusion of suffering no longer applies to the illusionary individual? Or to put more simply, did something happen (or seem to happen) to make your suffering end? Hi Andrew, For me the feeling of disconnection from source or whatever term is used for something like wholeness or completeness, was a profound discomfort. I cant remember what term I used for that. It probably varied but I now use the term Oneness. I don't know what needs to happen for others as characters vary but the following is an attempt to describe what apparently happened for me:- "Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. Whilst looking for the truth, which I believed would end my feeling of disconnection, I discovered Soren Kierkegaard which ended the search for the truth. The feeling of disconnection remained however but I was no longer bound by having to discover truth in order to end it. There was no longer anything like what you call "false assumptions" so I was no longer limited in the way you describe. I considered many spiritual paths and practices on the level of opening myself to what was being offered and see what happens without believing in or resonating with any of them. There were various experiences, some profound, but they didn't last and none ended the feeling of disconnection. It was amazing that during that period I never came across the concept "All is One" or maybe I did but was not ready to hear it. One fateful day it was heard and a strong resonance occurred which resulted in an intense focus on the concept to understand its implications. These can be very challenging as we have seen from reactions on this forum and elsewhere and were certainly challenging to the character amit. But after a number of years the implications were assimilated and the end of the feeling of disconnection, which started at the time of the original resonance, was consolidated. You could call some of what happened in those "number of years" a process of self inquiry when parts of the character that objected to the concept were overcome, but the main effect was the seeing that becoming enlightened/realized/awakened/liberated was not required by the concept because it was already Oneness not seeing" The only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering. Can you say something about where you are at with this kind of stuff? amit Thanks amit. I don't want to talk about the way in which its all unfolded for me...the last 14 years have been very..'haphazard', lots of twists and turns, lots of different kinds of explorations and focuses, and there was a lot of suffering over a period of years (I'm not saying there HAS to be suffering though). I understand and resonate with this....''the only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering'. What advice would you recommend someone that came to you and said that they are suffering? Would you guide them towards seeing something? Would you recommend that they focus on 'all is one'?
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Post by amit on Jul 9, 2013 1:05:34 GMT -5
Hi Andrew, For me the feeling of disconnection from source or whatever term is used for something like wholeness or completeness, was a profound discomfort. I cant remember what term I used for that. It probably varied but I now use the term Oneness. I don't know what needs to happen for others as characters vary but the following is an attempt to describe what apparently happened for me:- "Hi topology, Understood. Thanks. Whilst looking for the truth, which I believed would end my feeling of disconnection, I discovered Soren Kierkegaard which ended the search for the truth. The feeling of disconnection remained however but I was no longer bound by having to discover truth in order to end it. There was no longer anything like what you call "false assumptions" so I was no longer limited in the way you describe. I considered many spiritual paths and practices on the level of opening myself to what was being offered and see what happens without believing in or resonating with any of them. There were various experiences, some profound, but they didn't last and none ended the feeling of disconnection. It was amazing that during that period I never came across the concept "All is One" or maybe I did but was not ready to hear it. One fateful day it was heard and a strong resonance occurred which resulted in an intense focus on the concept to understand its implications. These can be very challenging as we have seen from reactions on this forum and elsewhere and were certainly challenging to the character amit. But after a number of years the implications were assimilated and the end of the feeling of disconnection, which started at the time of the original resonance, was consolidated. You could call some of what happened in those "number of years" a process of self inquiry when parts of the character that objected to the concept were overcome, but the main effect was the seeing that becoming enlightened/realized/awakened/liberated was not required by the concept because it was already Oneness not seeing" The only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering. Can you say something about where you are at with this kind of stuff? amit Thanks amit. I don't want to talk about the way in which its all unfolded for me...the last 14 years have been very..'haphazard', lots of twists and turns, lots of different kinds of explorations and focuses, and there was a lot of suffering over a period of years (I'm not saying there HAS to be suffering though). I understand and resonate with this....''the only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering'. What advice would you recommend someone that came to you and said that they are suffering? Would you guide them towards seeing something? Would you recommend that they focus on 'all is one'? Hi Andrew, Understood.Thanks. "What advice would you recommend someone that came to you and said that they are suffering? Would you guide them towards seeing something? Would you recommend that they focus on 'all is one'?" No advice whatsoever, just a sharing of what has, and is happening for each other to reach a sense of understanding about what is being said. If non-duality, or any other idea, is for anyone, resonance will happen all on its own. I considered what this sort of resonance may be in a reply to Enigma and likened it to love. The next day my wife gave me a box of chocolates in which I found the following:- "That inexplicable, elemental tug. That surprising sudden feeling you've been waiting for, when you find something and just fall for it. Illogically, irresistibly, and find yourself thinking of nothing else. Attraction and the dream of love to follow that keeps the imagination alive, that makes life pop and sparkle and fizz" I doubt if that can be taught. I like it better than mine. amit
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 2:06:39 GMT -5
Thanks amit. I don't want to talk about the way in which its all unfolded for me...the last 14 years have been very..'haphazard', lots of twists and turns, lots of different kinds of explorations and focuses, and there was a lot of suffering over a period of years (I'm not saying there HAS to be suffering though). I understand and resonate with this....''the only effect on my suffering was and is that while I suffer, there is no longer the additional suffering of feeling disconnected while suffering'. What advice would you recommend someone that came to you and said that they are suffering? Would you guide them towards seeing something? Would you recommend that they focus on 'all is one'? Hi Andrew, Understood.Thanks. "What advice would you recommend someone that came to you and said that they are suffering? Would you guide them towards seeing something? Would you recommend that they focus on 'all is one'?" No advice whatsoever, just a sharing of what has, and is happening for each other to reach a sense of understanding about what is being said. If non-duality, or any other idea, is for anyone, resonance will happen all on its own. I considered what this sort of resonance may be in a reply to Enigma and likened it to love. The next day my wife gave me a box of chocolates in which I found the following:- "That inexplicable, elemental tug. That surprising sudden feeling you've been waiting for, when you find something and just fall for it. Illogically, irresistibly, and find yourself thinking of nothing else. Attraction and the dream of love to follow that keeps the imagination alive, that makes life pop and sparkle and fizz" I doubt if that can be taught. I like it better than mine. amit It's beautiful how letting go of stuff opens a space where one is free to love unreservedly, and unconditionally.
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 9, 2013 5:36:01 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. 'Bump' Keep up.. Be well.. wow and you told me to detach ... attend the words on the page Bob: there's no such thing as disapproving of a gnosis ... if a Zen Master fails an answer to a koan it's just not the right answer ... that's not "disapproval". Balance.. you'll figure it out.. if there's a 'master', there's no Zen.. Be well..
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Post by laughter on Jul 9, 2013 8:08:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. wow and you told me to detach ... attend the words on the page Bob: there's no such thing as disapproving of a gnosis ... if a Zen Master fails an answer to a koan it's just not the right answer ... that's not "disapproval". Balance.. you'll figure it out.. if there's a 'master', there's no Zen.. Be well..
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