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Post by zendancer on Mar 21, 2013 8:02:46 GMT -5
Like Beingst, I think WS has made up his mind. He has chosen to believe "it makes no sense" because he's searched and hasn't found anything that makes sense. He is now holding onto "it makes no sense" so strongly, that I doubt any words can turn his attention away from that idea. That's perfectly so. I only suggest that other people consider how believing in any idea keeps one trapped in the mind. For anyone trapped in mind there is no willingness to turn attention to anything that might lie beyond mind. It's a bit like a hermit crab who says, "I'm happy inside my shell, even though it isn't very roomy or comfortable, and nothing is going to pull me out of here."
This is the cigarette-man koan in a different guise. The CM is very attached to oneness/emptiness, and no matter what you say to him, he will hit you. He is very strong. How can you teach the CM? If you penetrate this koan, you will understand what to do.
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 21, 2013 8:56:54 GMT -5
How can you teach the CM? To paraphrase Jesus "resist not CM's behavior, overcome it with good" The "teacher" should be in a place where he takes no offense and makes allowance for CM's behavior. Then the teacher is in a position to teach by not teaching.
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Post by silver on Mar 21, 2013 9:45:40 GMT -5
Thanks Andrew...............minus the particulars of your way of looking at things, i do the same thing. Not because i want to but because it is what is left after seeing thru to not knowing anything. Creating your reality consciously. The problem is, for me, it doesn't always bring peace and it seems almost selfish when considering my part in the whole. Kinda like i am living in my own world. It makes the rest of the world look insane....lol I think I understand what you mean, particularly with the 'selfish' bit. Again, what I am about to say seems truthful and right to me, but again I acknowledge that its only meaning that I am attributing. It seems to me that the most relative value I can offer is by taking responsibility for my peace and joy...in a sense, I feel like it isn't really serving anyone (and nor me), for me to be creating negativity and lack in the way that many in the world do. Reminds me of that Einstein saying...''we can't solve a problem at the level of consciousness at which it was created'', and ironically, for me, that means not spending too much time focusing ON the problems themselves. I also like the idea of ''be the change we wish to see in the world''. In a way, I feel like feeling 'selfish' in this particular matter may actually be a bit 'selfish' in itself, because when I am doing that, I am focusing more on me and not on what serves others. Its the same with 'depression'...I used to be pretty adept at creating depression, but eventually I came to see it as a bit of a self-indulgence...I said to someone recently who was a bit down and I knew that by saying this it would make them smile...''If ONLY I had the luxury of being able to depress myself. Oh, how lovely that would be to have the time to depress myself!''. They got it, and it worked. Have you looked closely at what your core values are James? At what you consider your responsibility to yourself and to others is?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 21, 2013 9:46:55 GMT -5
The teacher definitely doesn't take any offense at the CM's behavior, but HOW does he teach him? Remember, in every koan the person being asked the koan is an integral part of the koan. How do we teach someone who is so strongly attached to his/her ideas that she/he will not listen to anything we say? In the case of the CM, he will hit you no matter what you do or say. The answer to this koan, like all koans, must come from the body rather than the mind.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 21, 2013 10:15:27 GMT -5
Like Beingst, I think WS has made up his mind. He has chosen to believe "it makes no sense" because he's searched and hasn't found anything that makes sense. He is now holding onto "it makes no sense" so strongly, that I doubt any words can turn his attention away from that idea. That's perfectly so. I only suggest that other people consider how believing in any idea keeps one trapped in the mind. For anyone trapped in mind there is no willingness to turn attention to anything that might lie beyond mind. It's a bit like a hermit crab who says, "I'm happy inside my shell, even though it isn't very roomy or comfortable, and nothing is going to pull me out of here." This is the cigarette-man koan in a different guise. The CM is very attached to oneness/emptiness, and no matter what you say to him, he will hit you. He is very strong. How can you teach the CM? If you penetrate this koan, you will understand what to do. *** Niz huffin' and puffin' *** "That ZD hillbilly is making fun of me again... where are those f***ing matches when you need them... I'm going to teach him a lesson in huffin' and puffin'..."
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Post by laughter on Mar 21, 2013 10:19:32 GMT -5
Like Beingst, I think WS has made up his mind. He has chosen to believe "it makes no sense" because he's searched and hasn't found anything that makes sense. He is now holding onto "it makes no sense" so strongly, that I doubt any words can turn his attention away from that idea. That's perfectly so. I only suggest that other people consider how believing in any idea keeps one trapped in the mind. For anyone trapped in mind there is no willingness to turn attention to anything that might lie beyond mind. It's a bit like a hermit crab who says, "I'm happy inside my shell, even though it isn't very roomy or comfortable, and nothing is going to pull me out of here." This is the cigarette-man koan in a different guise. The CM is very attached to oneness/emptiness, and no matter what you say to him, he will hit you. He is very strong. How can you teach the CM? If you penetrate this koan, you will understand what to do. *** Niz huffin' and puffin' *** "That ZD hillbilly is making fun of me again... where are those f***ing matches when you need them... I'm going to teach him a lesson in huffin' and puffin'..." I'm startin' to recognize that guy in the upper-right hand corner by now ... he's the "I AM THAT" translator, right?
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Post by andrew on Mar 21, 2013 10:26:39 GMT -5
I think I understand what you mean, particularly with the 'selfish' bit. Again, what I am about to say seems truthful and right to me, but again I acknowledge that its only meaning that I am attributing. It seems to me that the most relative value I can offer is by taking responsibility for my peace and joy...in a sense, I feel like it isn't really serving anyone (and nor me), for me to be creating negativity and lack in the way that many in the world do. Reminds me of that Einstein saying...''we can't solve a problem at the level of consciousness at which it was created'', and ironically, for me, that means not spending too much time focusing ON the problems themselves. I also like the idea of ''be the change we wish to see in the world''. In a way, I feel like feeling 'selfish' in this particular matter may actually be a bit 'selfish' in itself, because when I am doing that, I am focusing more on me and not on what serves others. Its the same with 'depression'...I used to be pretty adept at creating depression, but eventually I came to see it as a bit of a self-indulgence...I said to someone recently who was a bit down and I knew that by saying this it would make them smile...''If ONLY I had the luxury of being able to depress myself. Oh, how lovely that would be to have the time to depress myself!''. They got it, and it worked. Have you looked closely at what your core values are James? At what you consider your responsibility to yourself and to others is? Great vid Sil
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Post by Reefs on Mar 21, 2013 10:28:31 GMT -5
*** Niz huffin' and puffin' *** "That ZD hillbilly is making fun of me again... where are those f***ing matches when you need them... I'm going to teach him a lesson in huffin' and puffin'..." I'm startin' to recognize that guy in the upper-right hand corner by now ... he's the "I AM THAT" translator, right? I dunno. It's definitely not Balsekar. !!! Niz exposed !!! Niz caught red-handed with concept ciggy in right hand on his way to secret identity poker meeting!!!
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 21, 2013 11:11:22 GMT -5
The teacher definitely doesn't take any offense at the CM's behavior, but HOW does he teach him? Remember, in every koan the person being asked the koan is an integral part of the koan. How do we teach someone who is so strongly attached to his/her ideas that she/he will not listen to anything we say? In the case of the CM, he will hit you no matter what you do or say. The answer to this koan, like all koans, must come from the body rather than the mind. A scene in the old Kung Fu series speaks of a man coming to beat you, the student, with a stick. In the end it is said that there are three options. Run, fight or take the mans stick away. In this koan the strong man will hit you with his fist. How do you disable his fist, which is nothing but an extension of his closed mind? If you respond to him from your ego, positively or negatively, you provoke a painful response from him. If you are Unmoving Presence before him, whatever you do in that moment, you hold up a mirror in which he might "experience" himself, like it or not. This could awaken him or scare the crap out of him, but in any case he is disabled by your lack of feedback to his ego, Love. (Egos can't stand alone - it always takes two to tango) In any case, he will have seen a Strength he has never seen before. A seed will have been planted. What he does with it will be his choice, but you have at least given him an opportunity he did not have before he encountered you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 12:47:20 GMT -5
Nothing makes sense. The moment it does, something happens to contradict it. Back to nothing makes sense. I reckon that the key is in here. The sense that was made wasn't true and therefore a contradiction was inevitable. Rather than accept that a default had been reached of 'nothing makes sense' and let it dissolve of it's own accord. Mind has hijacked it as an absolute and despondency is the result. An alternative is to allow the togetherness of shared grief, that the walk through the 6 year old's fun-eral will reveal. And then the true love inside, everyone attending won't be missed.
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Post by silence on Mar 21, 2013 14:29:12 GMT -5
If you're looking for something beyond this, you will find absolutely nothing. If you're willing to accept that this is it, you will find everything. Been there, done that, different result. Why is that? It's called trying to accept with a hidden motive. It's the game of trying to do surrender. It's what Top was talking about with the fallacy of making 'accepting everything as it is' a prescription rather than a result of clarity. Quite frankly, spirituality that has anything to do with what's actually true is NOT about getting what you want. That's the pill you seem to be choking on right now.
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Post by whiteshaman on Mar 21, 2013 21:20:18 GMT -5
Like Beingst, I think WS has made up his mind. He has chosen to believe "it makes no sense" because he's searched and hasn't found anything that makes sense. He is now holding onto "it makes no sense" so strongly, that I doubt any words can turn his attention away from that idea. That's perfectly so. I only suggest that other people consider how believing in any idea keeps one trapped in the mind. For anyone trapped in mind there is no willingness to turn attention to anything that might lie beyond mind. It's a bit like a hermit crab who says, "I'm happy inside my shell, even though it isn't very roomy or comfortable, and nothing is going to pull me out of here." This is the cigarette-man koan in a different guise. The CM is very attached to oneness/emptiness, and no matter what you say to him, he will hit you. He is very strong. How can you teach the CM? If you penetrate this koan, you will understand what to do. I could say the same about you, that you have made up your mind, that you think you have found the unimaginable. This isn't about me..............try and resist that thought because it's getting old that whenever there is a chance of a real discussion that people turn to trying to find fault in the other.
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Post by whiteshaman on Mar 21, 2013 21:22:41 GMT -5
Been there, done that, different result. Why is that? It's called trying to accept with a hidden motive. It's the game of trying to do surrender. It's what Top was talking about with the fallacy of making 'accepting everything as it is' a prescription rather than a result of clarity. Quite frankly, spirituality that has anything to do with what's actually true is NOT about getting what you want. That's the pill you seem to be choking on right now. Or it's called trying to see that whatever anyone else sees that opposes what you see as being with a hidden motive. As with ZD, i can say the same about you, the everything that you have a hidden motive to find..............but I won't cuz it isn't about me or you...........it's a discussion. I have no motives
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Post by Beingist on Mar 21, 2013 21:23:38 GMT -5
Like Beingst, I think WS has made up his mind. He has chosen to believe "it makes no sense" because he's searched and hasn't found anything that makes sense. He is now holding onto "it makes no sense" so strongly, that I doubt any words can turn his attention away from that idea. That's perfectly so. I only suggest that other people consider how believing in any idea keeps one trapped in the mind. For anyone trapped in mind there is no willingness to turn attention to anything that might lie beyond mind. It's a bit like a hermit crab who says, "I'm happy inside my shell, even though it isn't very roomy or comfortable, and nothing is going to pull me out of here." This is the cigarette-man koan in a different guise. The CM is very attached to oneness/emptiness, and no matter what you say to him, he will hit you. He is very strong. How can you teach the CM? If you penetrate this koan, you will understand what to do. I could say the same about you, that you have made up your mind, that you think you have found the unimaginable. This isn't about me..............try and resist that thought because it's getting old that whenever there is a chance of a real discussion that people turn to trying to find fault in the other. Not a matter of finding fault. It's just a matter of how we express what we see as 'what in blazes is going on' (to borrow a phrase).
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Post by whiteshaman on Mar 21, 2013 21:25:27 GMT -5
Nothing makes sense. The moment it does, something happens to contradict it. Back to nothing makes sense. I reckon that the key is in here. The sense that was made wasn't true and therefore a contradiction was inevitable. Rather than accept that a default had been reached of 'nothing makes sense' and let it dissolve of it's own accord. Mind has hijacked it as an absolute and despondency is the result. An alternative is to allow the togetherness of shared grief, that the walk through the 6 year old's fun-eral will reveal. And then the true love inside, everyone attending won't be missed. I haven't made the present realization/observation that nothing makes sense absolute by any means. It seems people need to believe that, possibly to support the sense they 'made' out of it. I really am open to anything........................but there is nothing of any sense.............except the sense that I create.
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