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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2012 10:59:00 GMT -5
You seem very sure that you have been. Can you be absolutely certain? What? Judged? most definately sure . Unfairly? no, but that's irrelevant Irrelevant? You've expressed your displeasure at being unfairly judged by judging and insulting me. If you have not been judged unfairly, than you have unfairly judged me. IOW, if that's true, then you have become that which displeases you. I'd say it's highly relevant. Look around and I think you'll find that most folks become that which most displeases them.
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Post by tzujanli on Dec 18, 2012 11:09:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. Okay, are you clear on how language and symbology function, "logic and grammar" inform the mind, what happens within the mind's functioning is actually beyond most people's understanding.. maybe you are different, but i'm only seeing a pejorative intent, a reasonable indication of a 'self' not liberated.. anyway, it seems that you believe " space, time and all kinds of other stuff" equates with " bondage and confusion", which is evidence of your attachment to your preferred ideology.. can you 'let that go', and just see what is happening without judging "bondage and confusion"? " all kinds of other stuff" is vague and subjective, hardly consistent with " rules that create meaning by connecting the dots in a certain way", unless " you weren't really aware of what you were typing, that your fingers were just moving and when 'post reply' was clicked and you saw what had been written, you were kinda surprised what just had been coming thru your fingers".. is this " how it works with this text format"? Dear new member.. As forum history shows a lot of misunderstandings in discussions arise simply because the members involved not necessarily are speaking the same language and are sometimes not even operating under the same set of logical rules. So this current conversation with you was just some kind of highspeed pre-screening to see if we speak the same language and operate under the same set of rules. If so, then we can go on and talk about the more subtle stuff. If not, then we'd better stop right here. You, dear Tzu, take mind as an entity. I don't, I take mind as a process, so I use it as a verb and not as a noun. To you, dear Tzu, stillness and silence are a state of mind. To me, stillness and silence are prior to minding. You see, we are speaking not the same language. Additionally, you replied in a eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth style which easily leads to a debate about who is the more enlightened one, Tzu or Reefs. You told me what I should drop. Why would you do that? I could easily point out several things for you to drop in return. But I don't think that's the way to go, at least that's not what I prefer right now. You see "a pejorative intent, a reasonable indication of a 'self' not liberated", an interesting choice of words, indeed. I'd say you are projecting, because I was basically only talking about the consistency of logic and choice of words and actually wanted to keep it on that rather abstract level, but you somehow took that personally and saw that as questioning your state of clarity? Is that defensiveness? That wouldn't be an ideal basis for a better mutual understanding. So you see, there seems to be something essential missing for a meaningful conversation between the two of us. good luck.. Dear Senior Member (known as Reefs): First, 'Dear Reefs', you assume more than you are actually aware of, so.. let me 'inform' you, an interesting process which you may or may not enjoy.. i understand mind as 'both' an entity and a process.. and yes, stillness and silence are states of mind, conceptual descriptions of actual happenings,, what is 'known' as stillness and silence is of mind, what is experienced remains a beautiful mystery of creation.. We speak the same language, with different understandings.. if you address me, i will reply, as is the custom of conversation and decorum.. if you don't understand my meaning consistent with your understandings, that is not my concern, and.. yes, you should "stop right there".. What is missing in our discussion, "Dear Reefs", is the intent to find common ground, very likely in both of us.. as your initial intent was not at all mistaken, i may be new to this forum, but this is a well traveled path.. So, if you care to engage in reasonable discussions, that might be fun, but.. do not assume a superior authoritarian role, it will not end well.. try a sincere cooperative exploration of existence, that could be really cool and last for eternity.. Be well, and.. Good Luck!
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2012 11:12:17 GMT -5
Haven't seen a tantrum this time around, midnight sounds a little more present and able to consider others input a little more than when he was here several months ago. I see relative progress. Lol, thanks I'd say my mind is more focused now, particularly after moving away from home and getting a job while at Uni. I don't have time to space out as much. hehe. Overall I feel better superficially, but I know that this needs to be resolved in order for me to move on, so I appreciate the input thus far, really, thank you everyone. That's good news. ;D
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Post by enigma on Dec 18, 2012 11:32:48 GMT -5
I don't seem to be finding an actual difference between an 'entity' and a 'process'. That is to say that entity is process, process is entity. You mean like a computer program?
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Post by silence on Dec 18, 2012 15:45:31 GMT -5
There isn't a void thing we can talk about. There is the minds reaction to what it sees as it's own annihilation. Going insane, irrational terror, purposeless anxiety, an eternity of purgatory like suffering etc. etc. You mentioned the void a long time ago and I responded simply by saying to explore it. Nothing has actually changed since then. You're just making horizonatal movements until you do. Well, I am very wary of the void because I have always been quite a sensitive individual and highly prone to anxiety and misery, so really I guess I have reached an impasse - you are going to repeat telling me to look into that void and I am going to be too terrified to do so, not really fully trusting your advice because.... well... lets face it, this is the internet thanks tho You dare disobey the interwebs!? In all seriousness, you'll look when the time is right.
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Post by laughter on Dec 18, 2012 16:04:00 GMT -5
Haven't seen a tantrum this time around, midnight sounds a little more present and able to consider others input a little more than when he was here several months ago. I see relative progress. Lol, thanks I'd say my mind is more focused now, particularly after moving away from home and getting a job while at Uni. I don't have time to space out as much. hehe. Overall I feel better superficially, but I know that this needs to be resolved in order for me to move on, so I appreciate the input thus far, really, thank you everyone. Hey thanks for the update on the situation Patrick. Heartening man.
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Post by relinquish on Dec 18, 2012 16:24:06 GMT -5
There isn't a void thing we can talk about. There is the minds reaction to what it sees as it's own annihilation. Going insane, irrational terror, purposeless anxiety, an eternity of purgatory like suffering etc. etc. You mentioned the void a long time ago and I responded simply by saying to explore it. Nothing has actually changed since then. You're just making horizonatal movements until you do. Well, I am very wary of the void because I have always been quite a sensitive individual and highly prone to anxiety and misery, so really I guess I have reached an impasse - you are going to repeat telling me to look into that void and I am going to be too terrified to do so, not really fully trusting your advice because.... well... lets face it, this is the internet thanks tho Anxiety and misery are not the void. They are what is experienced when the void is believed to be 'bad' or 'wrong' and a subsequent attempt to escape from it occurs. The void is just another name for what is ALWAYS here. You can NEVER escape from what you truely are.
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Post by etolle on Dec 15, 2018 11:48:18 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Topo: My apologies for intruding into your dialogue with 'midnight'.. In your reply to me you reference the following: " the illusion of being a persona and not the present awareness that is experienced in the absence of individuality and absence of the personal mental content.".. i am not aware of anyone that exists " in the absence of individuality and absence of the personal mental content", are you aware of such people? i am aware of people that can suspend their thought processes and create a temporary experience as you describe, and i have experienced people that use that temporary experience to justify a more broadly claimed existence apart from their individuality, but.. i am still weighing the experiences of both individuality/self and no self.. so far, i understand that both are existent, and therefore neither are illusory.. mostly, i sense that we choose which perspective, self/no-self, suits our interpretation of Life unfolding.. while for me personally, there is an 'unscratched itch' pondering what it is that ponders, what it is that chooses, and why the diversity of conclusions from the presumption of a non-differentiated awareness.. Be well.. Hi Tzu, I don't see it so much as a choice but that we exist at an equilibrium of understanding, a harmonic of vibration if you will accommodate that description, or in other words a perspective with some degree of conditioning by the environment, linguistically, ontologically, attitudinally, etc. If you will permit me this distinction: the difference between the impersonal perspective and the personal perspective. I'm fine with the impersonal perspective being somewhat of a platonic ideal, perhaps never perfectly achieved but that one can create a qualitative measure of what is closer to being impersonal rather than personal. The fundamental difference between these two perspectives deals with how a body-mind interprets and then responds/reacts to perceived events. The impersonal perspective sees what is and responds appropriately, adding little interpretation and the response is more practical, precise and effective in general. The personal perspective personalized the events and adds unnecessary interpretation to what is happening. The personal perspective makes itself more of a victim of circumstances, this is what is happening to "me" instead of simply what is happening. The personal perspective adds emotion and drama, worrying, mind chatter, and tends to want to be in control of situations more. Most every "spiritual" practice, when taken to completion of its incremental effects, moves a person from the personal perspective to the impersonal perspective. Quieting the mind, becoming aware of one's unconscious programming, looking at one's direct and immediate experience sans mental interpretation (seeing the qualitative experience directly), mindfulness, being present and non-reactive, Love and Forgiveness, etc. These endeavors are qualitatively transformative, giving the body-mind the opportunity to see clearly and then perhaps realize the truth of the way things are instead of how they are imagined to be. While it is true that we seem to be having individuated experiences, I can't see out your eyes and you can't see out mine, we are still having universal experiences. This can be seen best if we were to stand next to each other in view of the same vista. As you and I look out upon the same view and if we let our minds go quiet, there is more sameness to our experience than difference. With the absence of the personal mind-story which anchors our thinking that we are a person named so-and-so, we can see and realize that we could have been anybody. With the mind quieted we realize our sameness. The consciousness here, the presence, awareness, clarity, it is the same with minor variations in emotion, mental content, and body manifestation. As one continues with these "spiritual" practices, the self-identification shifts from being centered around the story details stored in the body-mind's memory to being centered around these universal qualities. As the attention and orientation shifts towards the impersonal and the universal, the story-content tends to fall away as the details become unimportant, happenstance, and with little significance. As the orientation normalizes through abiding in the clarity of direct experience and the mind normalizes in quietude, even the story of having made the the thoughts around the process of shifting tend to fall away and lose their significance. One simply acclimates and gets used to living from the impersonal perspective. The life of the personal self is lived purely in imagination as a coloring of the experience as it is interpreted by the mind. The mind has been habituated to a few confirmation biases where it uses the existence of Y in the experience to conclude that Z is true. "people call this body so-and-so, so therefore I exist as so-and-so." this kind of subtle buy-in to the story is very hard to doubt and when initially doubted it plunges the mind's identification process into existential crisis. If I am not this persona, not the past events, not my thoughts, then who or what am I?!? Anything at all? But this is just the mind in its panic, the death throws of the identification with the personal. There are many many people that live in this impersonal perspective. I think most don't even realize it because they haven't thought about the differences significantly. They just live without making a big fuss or taking things personally. From the outside they look like a grounded human being, from the inside they are just present and aware in every situation without thinking about needing to be present and aware. Then there are those of us who have had to resort to philosophy and spirituality to cope with our personal obsessions and that has brought us to the impersonal perspective. In a nutshell it is simply practical living, wisdom in expression, clarity of Mind and emotion in response. But it is impersonal and without reflective or self-obsessed thought or interpretation. wooonellie...the personal,and impersonal explanation resonates with me today. I wasn't sure what was goin on but I don't take things personally now and it is an amazing way to live..to be free from who I thought I was and experience things as they are I just don't have words for...whatever happened to topology?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 15, 2018 12:20:45 GMT -5
Hi Tzu, I don't see it so much as a choice but that we exist at an equilibrium of understanding, a harmonic of vibration if you will accommodate that description, or in other words a perspective with some degree of conditioning by the environment, linguistically, ontologically, attitudinally, etc. If you will permit me this distinction: the difference between the impersonal perspective and the personal perspective. I'm fine with the impersonal perspective being somewhat of a platonic ideal, perhaps never perfectly achieved but that one can create a qualitative measure of what is closer to being impersonal rather than personal. The fundamental difference between these two perspectives deals with how a body-mind interprets and then responds/reacts to perceived events. The impersonal perspective sees what is and responds appropriately, adding little interpretation and the response is more practical, precise and effective in general. The personal perspective personalized the events and adds unnecessary interpretation to what is happening. The personal perspective makes itself more of a victim of circumstances, this is what is happening to "me" instead of simply what is happening. The personal perspective adds emotion and drama, worrying, mind chatter, and tends to want to be in control of situations more. Most every "spiritual" practice, when taken to completion of its incremental effects, moves a person from the personal perspective to the impersonal perspective. Quieting the mind, becoming aware of one's unconscious programming, looking at one's direct and immediate experience sans mental interpretation (seeing the qualitative experience directly), mindfulness, being present and non-reactive, Love and Forgiveness, etc. These endeavors are qualitatively transformative, giving the body-mind the opportunity to see clearly and then perhaps realize the truth of the way things are instead of how they are imagined to be. While it is true that we seem to be having individuated experiences, I can't see out your eyes and you can't see out mine, we are still having universal experiences. This can be seen best if we were to stand next to each other in view of the same vista. As you and I look out upon the same view and if we let our minds go quiet, there is more sameness to our experience than difference. With the absence of the personal mind-story which anchors our thinking that we are a person named so-and-so, we can see and realize that we could have been anybody. With the mind quieted we realize our sameness. The consciousness here, the presence, awareness, clarity, it is the same with minor variations in emotion, mental content, and body manifestation. As one continues with these "spiritual" practices, the self-identification shifts from being centered around the story details stored in the body-mind's memory to being centered around these universal qualities. As the attention and orientation shifts towards the impersonal and the universal, the story-content tends to fall away as the details become unimportant, happenstance, and with little significance. As the orientation normalizes through abiding in the clarity of direct experience and the mind normalizes in quietude, even the story of having made the the thoughts around the process of shifting tend to fall away and lose their significance. One simply acclimates and gets used to living from the impersonal perspective. The life of the personal self is lived purely in imagination as a coloring of the experience as it is interpreted by the mind. The mind has been habituated to a few confirmation biases where it uses the existence of Y in the experience to conclude that Z is true. "people call this body so-and-so, so therefore I exist as so-and-so." this kind of subtle buy-in to the story is very hard to doubt and when initially doubted it plunges the mind's identification process into existential crisis. If I am not this persona, not the past events, not my thoughts, then who or what am I?!? Anything at all? But this is just the mind in its panic, the death throws of the identification with the personal. There are many many people that live in this impersonal perspective. I think most don't even realize it because they haven't thought about the differences significantly. They just live without making a big fuss or taking things personally. From the outside they look like a grounded human being, from the inside they are just present and aware in every situation without thinking about needing to be present and aware. Then there are those of us who have had to resort to philosophy and spirituality to cope with our personal obsessions and that has brought us to the impersonal perspective. In a nutshell it is simply practical living, wisdom in expression, clarity of Mind and emotion in response. But it is impersonal and without reflective or self-obsessed thought or interpretation. wooonellie...the personal,and impersonal explanation resonates with me today. I wasn't sure what was goin on but I don't take things personally now and it is an amazing way to live..to be free from who I thought I was and experience things as they are I just don't have words for...whatever happened to topology? Last I remember topology was working last-minute-very-hard on his PhD. ?
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