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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 12, 2013 14:43:49 GMT -5
Hmm, I debate that. It seems to me that when faced with death many many people construct elaborate stories about souls and reincarnation and heaven ... all in an attempt to reassure themselves that "self"/identity carries on after death. Well, unless you are an atheist. Then you are more apt to do things in this life -- having children, gifting money so a building can be named in your honor, winning the Nobel prize, etc -- to leave a legacy with your name attached to it forever and ever (or until the sun goes supernova). When faced with death, it seems to me that self gets ever more creative in its defenses. ok, since I'm in a gabby mood today .. hehe when the decision was made to unhook my sis from the respirator, everyone piled into the room to 'send her off' or whatever. and some background .. she was gay, and so she had a fairly large circle of friends and whatnot, and many of them are 'wacky Christians' hehe. and by the way, my brother and I (who are the last two standing of a fairly large family) were like .. "wtf, who are all these people?, um .. hey guys, maybe we would like this to be a private family affair" (thought it, didn't say it) anyhoo, so they take that contraption out of her throat (which is pretty gnarly btw) and everyone was expecting her to expire fairly quickly, so they started speaking in tongues, or whatever, "go to the light, Momma's waiting for you, take her Jesus" yada yada. ok, so I'm pretty zen like throughout the process, and I'm just observing the spectacle from a detached perspective. and about five minutes into it, after it looks like she was gonna hang on for a while .. I grabbed her hand , said "later sister", and out the door I went... I was thinking more about when faced with the idea of the inevitability of your own death, not someone else's.. but I like your gabbiness. Would you say that a lot of the theatrics in that room were self-absorbed and had nothing to do with your sister?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 14:52:33 GMT -5
Went through a similar deal with my Brother, no folks speaking in tongues though....there was this nurse who was very helpful, bit a little strange too. She apparently was a "specialist" in sitting with families while folks passed....like I said, she was very helpful to my Mom, but there was something a little strange about her, in that she seemed to have a kind of fetish or addiction to being with people when they passed, she would say things like "he's getting close now, it won't be too much longer", she said it very compassionately, and was very respectful, almost reverent, but there was also a light in her eyes that lit up more the closer he got to passing that I didn't understand until it was all over. Kevin seemed to struggle with passing until I whispered in his ear not to be afraid, that we would all be okay, and that it was okay to let go....a kind of palpable peace came over him and the whole room, and he passed...It was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life actually....and I can totally understand the nurse's "fetish" with sitting with folks when they are passing. I don't have any belief in death, I think its a figment of the imagination....I haven't "mourned" a death in many years. Didn't seem like my brother died while sitting there holding his hand, it was pretty obvious that it was a peaceful beautiful passing. Later, being a "spiritual" kind of guy, I spoke with that nurse at length. She said she had sat with over a thousand people when they passed, and that the palpable peace in the room was common, but just as common is a kind of pain or struggle in the room, and that when the room was filled with bad energy it was usually with someone who was struggling against dying and who had not let go of regrets and such. thanks... yeah, hospital death beds are surreal events. I remember when they called to say my Mom had woken up and said, "I'm dying, please call my children". I was the last one to arrive, and she must have been hanging on just for me to get there, because I wasn't in the room five minutes when she briefly opened her eyes, and was gone. Not much zen back then, and that one hurt like a son of a b!tch, like a permanently severed umbilical cord or something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 14:57:15 GMT -5
I'm not certain a detached perspective is equal to/same as Detachment. A detached perspective is more like changing one's mind about something. Detachment is a whole other ballgame.can you describe how you understand it? It's as though you're absorbed into it. But that took place long before the moment of 'death'. It's difficult to describe, but it's like being danced. It's like you're aware of everything within the immediate environment, and your responses are no longer the thinking mind's responses. You see what's about to unfold before it happens. It's like being wide-wide awake...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:03:10 GMT -5
I was thinking more about when faced with the idea of the inevitability of your own death, not someone else's.. but I like your gabbiness. Would you say that a lot of the theatrics in that room were self-absorbed and had nothing to do with your sister? I don't think I would call it "theatrical", but we all know what effects religion can have on people. People find comfort in thinking there's "a heaven", and that they'll see their loved ones again. But yes, I suspect everyone there was "self absorbed". Its not called the 99.999% for nothing you know. edit: that last sentence was retarded, but take the retarded bits out, and maybe it speaks to some kind of a persistent condition on this little planet of ours, which needs some investigative work
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:07:01 GMT -5
can you describe how you understand it? It's as though you're absorbed into it. But that took place long before the moment of 'death'. It's difficult to describe, but it's like being danced. It's like you're aware of everything within the immediate environment, and your responses are no longer the thinking mind's responses. You see what's about to unfold before it happens. It's like being wide-wide awake... Samadhi ;-) Absolute Subjectivity
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:40:18 GMT -5
It's as though you're absorbed into it. But that took place long before the moment of 'death'. It's difficult to describe, but it's like being danced. It's like you're aware of everything within the immediate environment, and your responses are no longer the thinking mind's responses. You see what's about to unfold before it happens. It's like being wide-wide awake... Samadhi ;-) So you're saying samadhi is detachment. Coz I might be inclined to agree with that, and was in fact pointing in that direction with the previous post about Detachment vs. detached perspective... Whatever it is, it's stranger than I can think. Figgy once shared something very similar. Hopefully she'll add to the mix here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 15:59:45 GMT -5
So you're saying samadhi is detachment. Coz I might be inclined to agree with that, and was in fact pointing in that direction with the previous post about Detachment vs. detached perspective... Whatever it is, it's stranger than I can think. Figgy once shared something very similar. Hopefully she'll add to the mix here. Detachment is a pretty good attempt at objectifying the experience, of late I've grown partial to using the words "absolute subjectivity", that its kinda like your seat of awareness is sorta removed from everything and every experience, including the experience of your own bodymind and action is "out front" so to speak. kinda like your own bodymind and its movement are just another happening in the environment that you are not attached to, or you could say that you are detached from, only there is no "you" that is detached everything is just an experience occuring in a kind of hyper wakefullness, including the experience of what was your bodymind it can be percieved as a detachment, but it akso like everything just is with no "you" thats engaged. Its like your own body mind and its activities are just another experience with mo more or less significance that any other exoerience in the evironment. The trees are there moving in the wind, the birds are there chirping, the mind is there moving and thinking thoughts, the body is there sensing, the bugs are there bugging....its all just a happening in a kind og immediete and visceral wakefulness with mo foundation or definition. I use the word "undifferentiated", because even though there is the experience of phenomena, its like all phenomena, including your mindbidy and its activity, are all one kind of happening phenomena with no "you" attached or engaged. And at times, even the experience of phenomena disappear, but that wide wide awakeness remains.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 16:07:44 GMT -5
So you're saying samadhi is detachment. Coz I might be inclined to agree with that, and was in fact pointing in that direction with the previous post about Detachment vs. detached perspective... Whatever it is, it's stranger than I can think. Figgy once shared something very similar. Hopefully she'll add to the mix here. Detachment is a pretty good attempt at objectifying the experience, of late I've grown partial to using the words "absolute subjectivity", that its kinda like your seat of awareness is sorta removed from everything and every experience, including the experience of your own bodymind and action is "out front" so to speak. kinda like your own bodymind and its movement are just another happening in the environment that you are not attached to, or you could say that you are detached from, only there is no "you" that is detachedeverything is just an experience occuring in a kind of hyper wakefullness, including the experience of what was your bodymind it can be percieved as a detachment, but it also like everything just is with no "you" thats engaged.The bolded makes sense to me based on the direct experience I attempted to describe. Absolute subjectivity = Pure awareness on this end.
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Post by silence on Aug 12, 2013 17:20:57 GMT -5
I used to think of a "Realization" as being like one swift blow of an axe to the back of the neck ... which now I assume was just a 'seeker's fantasy' of achieving something .. ie. "I want to be enlightened". I assume that realizations 'come in all shapes and sizes', and that everyone has them at some time or another, whether they are on some kind of spiritual journey or not .. ie. a belief that was here yesterday is gone today. But some realizations seem 'more important than others', as if a deeply held belief, which was 'leading you around by the nose' is "seen through" .. and then falls away. It seems that as one of those deeply imbedded beliefs falls away, there can be an 'adjustment period', an aftermath of weeks or months in duration, a "sorting out". Can anyone speak to this? I'd say mind has the potential to become seriously destabilized and the 'adjustment period' can either include getting used to things getting quieter and quieter or a brand new narrative about checking realizations off a list and a detailed story about some sort of spiritual path. Seems very few people can resist getting infatuated with this repair process of mind.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 17:32:51 GMT -5
I'd say mind has the potential to become seriously destabilized and the 'adjustment period' can either include getting used to things getting quieter and quieter or a brand new narrative about checking realizations off a list and a detailed story about some sort of spiritual path. Seems very few people can resist getting infatuated with this repair process of mind. I am cool with quiet, I prefer it actually. And I'm not really on any kind of a realizations quest, and other than participation on this forum, I currently have no other links to a spirituality path. I don't really understand what you refer to as "infatuated", I get curious about certain things, and my attention rests on it until some kind of an understanding arises.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:11:36 GMT -5
Detachment is a pretty good attempt at objectifying the experience, of late I've grown partial to using the words "absolute subjectivity", that its kinda like your seat of awareness is sorta removed from everything and every experience, including the experience of your own bodymind and action is "out front" so to speak. kinda like your own bodymind and its movement are just another happening in the environment that you are not attached to, or you could say that you are detached from, only there is no "you" that is detachedeverything is just an experience occuring in a kind of hyper wakefullness, including the experience of what was your bodymind it can be percieved as a detachment, but it also like everything just is with no "you" thats engaged.The bolded makes sense to me based on the direct experience I attempted to describe. Absolute subjectivity = Pure awareness on this end. For me, Absolute Subjectivity is what I call Samadhi in English....and what the phrase points to is a kind of "state" of being absorbed in pure undifferentiated awareness, where all experiencial phenomena is is all there....one might say that its the experience of the existence of utterly aware phenomena with no doing and no doer.... "only utterly aware/awake existence with no doer or doing or experiencer"-----thats the best I can relate Samadhi, or what I call Absolute Subjectivity, or what you call Detachment
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:18:11 GMT -5
For me, Absolute Subjectivity is what I call Samadhi in English....and what the phrase points to is a kind of "state" of being absorbed in pure undifferentiated awareness, where all experiencial phenomena is is all there....one might say that its the experience of the existence of utterly aware phenomena with no doing and no doer.... This speaks to me of the quality of being. "only utterly aware/awake existence with no doer or doing or experiencer"-----thats the best I can relate Samadhi, or what I call Absolute Subjectivity, or what you call Detachment Samadhi Detachment Is-ness Louise who knows?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:25:38 GMT -5
For me, Absolute Subjectivity is what I call Samadhi in English....and what the phrase points to is a kind of "state" of being absorbed in pure undifferentiated awareness, where all experiencial phenomena is is all there....one might say that its the experience of the existence of utterly aware phenomena with no doing and no doer.... This speaks to me of the quality of being."only utterly aware/awake existence with no doer or doing or experiencer"-----thats the best I can relate Samadhi, or what I call Absolute Subjectivity, or what you call Detachment Samadhi Detachment Is-ness Louise who knows? Sorry Bro, I'm not up on the ongoing conversation enough to get that bit in red, but I'm interested in what that means to you, can you explain or elaborate? As to that last bit.....aye Louise is as good a name as any though....how bout Bob? Thats shorter and easier to type ;-) lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:33:26 GMT -5
This speaks to me of the quality of being.Samadhi Detachment Is-ness Louise who knows? Sorry Bro, I'm not up on the ongoing conversation enough to get that bit in red, but I'm interested in what that means to you, can you explain or elaborate? As to that last bit.....aye Louise is as good a name as any though....how bout Bob? Thats shorter and easier to type ;-) lol Ask me again when I'm nowhere to be found in samadhi/detachment/louise
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:41:42 GMT -5
Sorry Bro, I'm not up on the ongoing conversation enough to get that bit in red, but I'm interested in what that means to you, can you explain or elaborate? As to that last bit.....aye Louise is as good a name as any though....how bout Bob? Thats shorter and easier to type ;-) lol Ask me again when I'm nowhere to be found in samadhi/detachment/louise Aye I've been making Louise a regular thing lately, trying to "incorporate" living this life that way, and in most activities I can absorb or detach into the absolute subjectivity fairly easy now, but rather comically, its surprisingly difficult to type a post here WHILE Louise is filling the room so to speak lol I've done it, but its like trying to not fall out of a big plastic container coated with vegetable oil thats been turned upside down lol Its kinda a fun exercise though ;-)
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