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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 14:02:38 GMT -5
What does it mean to say Truth is self evident? Knowledge requires evidence to support it, and so no knowledge is self evident, but Truth does not refer to knowledge.
This self evident, non-conceptual nature applies to all genuine realizations, no matter how small, because the nature of a realization is the seeing of what is NOT so; the collapse of a belief.
This realization is not an idea or a thought or conclusion, and so it is not seen as part of the temporal flow of experience as events occurring in time. As such, realization is timeless, and occurs as a flash of insight. We've all had them so it's not something woo woo.
Since it is not thought, it is not the knowing of some knowledge that can be stored in memory and recalled later. As such, a realization can only be realized NOW. No matter how many times you notice it, it will never become a part of your knowledge base as something that you know. You cannot know anything. All knowledge is subject to doubt.
Since a realization is not knowledge, it is not seen as something that can be true or false. For the same reason it's also not subject to the need to be supported by evidence. There a 'rule' in logic that says you can't prove a negative. We all intuitive know that it would be impossible to search every corner of the universe to prove that unicorns don't exist, but the dilemma is more obvious than that. It's not so much that a negative can't be proven, but that it doesn't require proof. As they say, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. No knowledge or evidence is required to realize that something is NOT so, assuming that this is the case.
The realization that there is no volition is not the knowing of some knowledge that you acquire and then believe to be true. It is not something that you need evidence to support. It is not a thought or a conclusion any more than 'no unicorns' is true knowledge that you can support with evidence. It's the realization that volition was an idea, an assumption, conclusion that never had any more foundation than unicorns. You are not left with a belief in nonvolition, or a true concept about volition, you are left with nothing. Volition is irrelevant.
The realization of oneness is not knowledge about oneness or the visceral experience of everything mushed together into a oneness glob, it's the seeing that the idea of separation was assumption, conclusion, imagination, and never had a leg to stand on. The issue of separation is irrelevant.
The realization that you are not a mind/body is the noticing that the idea that you are a thing or a label is absurd. The issue of identification is irrelevant.
As realizations are not in the domain of thoughts and proof and doubt, you cannot turn your realization over to mind for it to think about. If you do, mind WILL find evidence to support it's preferred conclusions. This is why I talk about your realizations being sovereign. You see what you see, timelessly with absolute self evident clarity. Mind is the servant of that seeing, not it's master.
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Post by Beingist on Feb 24, 2012 14:40:16 GMT -5
The realization that there is no volition is not the knowing of some knowledge that you acquire and then believe to be true. It is not something that you need evidence to support. It is not a thought or a conclusion any more than 'no unicorns' is true knowledge that you can support with evidence. It's the realization that volition was an idea, an assumption, conclusion that never had any more foundation than unicorns. You are not left with a belief in nonvolition, or a true concept about volition, you are left with nothing. Volition is irrelevant. Yes. Right. That's it. ;D Otherwise, gratias tibi ago. That really explains everything about ... well, pretty much everything. Silence explained this earlier, in a way that made sense at the time, but again, thanks for further elaborating. While I understand perfectly, and agree, I have to admit that there's just something about the word, 'sovereign' that bugs me, which is probably why I had so much difficulty understanding this earlier. It's as though another term would be better suited for your explanation. However, as I read your explanation above, I realize that the reason the term bugs me, is probably due to my ego not wanting to let go of its presumed sovereignty, as if it says "what?! No, I'm the sovereign one here!" I'm getting over that, but I just wanted to throw that out there, in case anyone else had any issues with the term.
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Post by james on Feb 24, 2012 14:53:53 GMT -5
I found that post extremely helpful, thanks. Turns out I have had a false idea about realizations that has now been seen through.
I thought if the mind even reminded me 'this is oneness' etc from time to time, then it couldn't be a real realization. I took this kind of mind movement as a 'it's trying to convince itself of it, so it doesn't know for sure', but I see now that it ain't necessarily so.
I have been subtly expecting to have my 'semi' realizations converted to 'full realizations' by 'direct seeing' in a woo woo experience.
But it is obvious there is only oneness and separation is only an idea, and has been for a time. How did I overlook that this was the realization. Why did I think it was incomplete. I just don't know, it seems stupid now.
PS my mind never tries to protest 'but there IS free will, there are things, there is a 'you'' etc. It knows it would get laughed at.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 15:00:20 GMT -5
The realization that there is no volition is not the knowing of some knowledge that you acquire and then believe to be true. It is not something that you need evidence to support. It is not a thought or a conclusion any more than 'no unicorns' is true knowledge that you can support with evidence. It's the realization that volition was an idea, an assumption, conclusion that never had any more foundation than unicorns. You are not left with a belief in nonvolition, or a true concept about volition, you are left with nothing. Volition is irrelevant. Yes. Right. That's it. ;D Otherwise, gratias tibi ago. That really explains everything about ... well, pretty much everything. Silence explained this earlier, in a way that made sense at the time, but again, thanks for further elaborating. While I understand perfectly, and agree, I have to admit that there's just something about the word, 'sovereign' that bugs me, which is probably why I had so much difficulty understanding this earlier. It's as though another term would be better suited for your explanation. However, as I read your explanation above, I realize that the reason the term bugs me, is probably due to my ego not wanting to let go of its presumed sovereignty, as if it says "what?! No, I'm the sovereign one here!" I'm getting over that, but I just wanted to throw that out there, in case anyone else had any issues with the term. It's an odd term that I never used till about a month ago, but it keeps showing up and feels right. Glad you're rezzing.
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Post by relinquish on Feb 24, 2012 15:05:03 GMT -5
As with SO MANY threads and posts of yours on here E, by all rights, peeps SHOULD be able to come away from reading this having had the realization that the were looking for. The problem is that, as you put it, their cup is too full, and they are terrified to empty it. Brilliant post, my friend.
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 15:09:18 GMT -5
I found that post extremely helpful, thanks. Turns out I have had a false idea about realizations that has now been seen through. I thought if the mind even reminded me 'this is oneness' etc from time to time, then it couldn't be a real realization. I took this kind of mind movement as a 'it's trying to convince itself of it, so it doesn't know for sure', but I see now that it ain't necessarily so. I have been subtly expecting to have my 'semi' realizations converted to 'full realizations' by 'direct seeing' in a woo woo experience. But it is obvious there is only oneness and separation is only an idea, and has been for a time. How did I overlook that this was the realization. Why did I think it was incomplete. I just don't know, it seems stupid now. PS my mind never tries to protest 'but there IS free will, there are things, there is a 'you'' etc. It knows it would get laughed at. Yeah, mind is looking for reasons to call it incomplete or waiting for a powerful woo woo experience or whatever it takes to throw the obvious into doubt. Realization isn't usually the problem we imagine it to be because it IS so obvious. Most of the problem is mind distorting it with it's stories. Cool stuff.
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tath
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Post by tath on Feb 24, 2012 15:14:52 GMT -5
oneness is a minding
no seperation is a minding
Essential Nature is not a minding
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 15:15:08 GMT -5
As with SO MANY threads and posts of yours on here E, by all rights, peeps SHOULD be able to come away from reading this having had the realization that the were looking for. The problem is that, as you put it, their cup is too full, and they are terrified to empty it. Brilliant post, my friend. Thanks. Yeah, mostly what you and I and a few others do here is try to empty the cups scattered around. Kinda like cleaning up after a wild party, though there's still some partying going on here and there. ;D
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Post by enigma on Feb 24, 2012 15:17:05 GMT -5
oneness is a minding no seperation is a minding Essential Nature is not a minding Contans minding
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tath
New Member
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Post by tath on Feb 24, 2012 15:17:51 GMT -5
What does it mean to say Truth is self evident? Knowledge requires evidence to support it, and so no knowledge is self evident, but Truth does not refer to knowledge. This self evident, non-conceptual nature applies to all genuine realizations, no matter how small, because the nature of a realization is the seeing of what is NOT so; the collapse of a belief. This realization is not an idea or a thought or conclusion, and so it is not seen as part of the temporal flow of experience as events occurring in time. As such, realization is timeless, and occurs as a flash of insight. We've all had them so it's not something woo woo. Since it is not thought, it is not the knowing of some knowledge that can be stored in memory and recalled later. As such, a realization can only be realized NOW. No matter how many times you notice it, it will never become a part of your knowledge base as something that you know. You cannot know anything. All knowledge is subject to doubt. Since a realization is not knowledge, it is not seen as something that can be true or false. For the same reason it's also not subject to the need to be supported by evidence. There a 'rule' in logic that says you can't prove a negative. We all intuitive know that it would be impossible to search every corner of the universe to prove that unicorns don't exist, but the dilemma is more obvious than that. It's not so much that a negative can't be proven, but that it doesn't require proof. As they say, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. No knowledge or evidence is required to realize that something is NOT so, assuming that this is the case. The realization that there is no volition is not the knowing of some knowledge that you acquire and then believe to be true. It is not something that you need evidence to support. It is not a thought or a conclusion any more than 'no unicorns' is true knowledge that you can support with evidence. It's the realization that volition was an idea, an assumption, conclusion that never had any more foundation than unicorns. You are not left with a belief in nonvolition, or a true concept about volition, you are left with nothing. Volition is irrelevant. The realization of oneness is not knowledge about oneness or the visceral experience of everything mushed together into a oneness glob, it's the seeing that the idea of separation was assumption, conclusion, imagination, and never had a leg to stand on. The issue of separation is irrelevant. The realization that you are not a mind/body is the noticing that the idea that you are a thing or a label is absurd. The issue of identification is irrelevant. As realizations are not in the domain of thoughts and proof and doubt, you cannot turn your realization over to mind for it to think about. If you do, mind WILL find evidence to support it's preferred conclusions. This is why I talk about your realizations being sovereign. You see what you see, timelessly with absolute self evident clarity. Mind is the servant of that seeing, not it's master. this entire post is a minding about minding thoughts pointing toward thinking thoughts about thoughts and then accepting the thoughts about thoughts as soveriegn truth nothing is soveriegn nothing is truth when it is a truth "about" something that is seen or realized the only truth is Essential Nature
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Post by relinquish on Feb 24, 2012 15:20:51 GMT -5
As with SO MANY threads and posts of yours on here E, by all rights, peeps SHOULD be able to come away from reading this having had the realization that the were looking for. The problem is that, as you put it, their cup is too full, and they are terrified to empty it. Brilliant post, my friend. Thanks. Yeah, mostly what you and I and a few others do here is try to empty the cups scattered around. Kinda like cleaning up after a wild party, though there's still some partying going on here and there. ;D Hehe. And what a wild party it has been here of late!!
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tath
New Member
Posts: 43
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Post by tath on Feb 24, 2012 15:24:56 GMT -5
As realizations are not in the domain of thoughts and proof and doubt, you cannot turn your realization over to mind for it to think about. If you do, mind WILL find evidence to support it's preferred conclusions. This is why I talk about your realizations being sovereign. You see what you see, timelessly with absolute self evident clarity. Mind is the servant of that seeing, not it's master. no....all realizations are a minding...that doesnt mean they are not useful but they are still minding and therefore not the "truth" only Essential Nature is not minding, and there are no realizations in Essential Nature realizations are only occurances within and by minding
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Post by relinquish on Feb 24, 2012 15:25:05 GMT -5
What does it mean to say Truth is self evident? Knowledge requires evidence to support it, and so no knowledge is self evident, but Truth does not refer to knowledge. This self evident, non-conceptual nature applies to all genuine realizations, no matter how small, because the nature of a realization is the seeing of what is NOT so; the collapse of a belief. This realization is not an idea or a thought or conclusion, and so it is not seen as part of the temporal flow of experience as events occurring in time. As such, realization is timeless, and occurs as a flash of insight. We've all had them so it's not something woo woo. Since it is not thought, it is not the knowing of some knowledge that can be stored in memory and recalled later. As such, a realization can only be realized NOW. No matter how many times you notice it, it will never become a part of your knowledge base as something that you know. You cannot know anything. All knowledge is subject to doubt. Since a realization is not knowledge, it is not seen as something that can be true or false. For the same reason it's also not subject to the need to be supported by evidence. There a 'rule' in logic that says you can't prove a negative. We all intuitive know that it would be impossible to search every corner of the universe to prove that unicorns don't exist, but the dilemma is more obvious than that. It's not so much that a negative can't be proven, but that it doesn't require proof. As they say, the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. No knowledge or evidence is required to realize that something is NOT so, assuming that this is the case. The realization that there is no volition is not the knowing of some knowledge that you acquire and then believe to be true. It is not something that you need evidence to support. It is not a thought or a conclusion any more than 'no unicorns' is true knowledge that you can support with evidence. It's the realization that volition was an idea, an assumption, conclusion that never had any more foundation than unicorns. You are not left with a belief in nonvolition, or a true concept about volition, you are left with nothing. Volition is irrelevant. The realization of oneness is not knowledge about oneness or the visceral experience of everything mushed together into a oneness glob, it's the seeing that the idea of separation was assumption, conclusion, imagination, and never had a leg to stand on. The issue of separation is irrelevant. The realization that you are not a mind/body is the noticing that the idea that you are a thing or a label is absurd. The issue of identification is irrelevant. As realizations are not in the domain of thoughts and proof and doubt, you cannot turn your realization over to mind for it to think about. If you do, mind WILL find evidence to support it's preferred conclusions. This is why I talk about your realizations being sovereign. You see what you see, timelessly with absolute self evident clarity. Mind is the servant of that seeing, not it's master. this entire post is a minding about minding thoughts pointing toward thinking thoughts about thoughts and then accepting the thoughts about thoughts as soveriegn truth nothing is soveriegn nothing is truth when it is a truth "about" something that is seen or realized the only truth is Essential Nature Oneness and Essential Nature are both words pointing to the same thingless thing Tath. Do you think any of your pointers are comming from anywhere other than thoughts in your minding mind?
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tath
New Member
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Post by tath on Feb 24, 2012 15:26:45 GMT -5
As with SO MANY threads and posts of yours on here E, by all rights, peeps SHOULD be able to come away from reading this having had the realization that the were looking for. The problem is that, as you put it, their cup is too full, and they are terrified to empty it. Brilliant post, my friend. contains psychoanalysiswhich are thoughts thinking thoughts about thoughts, and is therefore delusion.
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Post by Beingist on Feb 24, 2012 15:29:28 GMT -5
As with SO MANY threads and posts of yours on here E, by all rights, peeps SHOULD be able to come away from reading this having had the realization that the were looking for. The problem is that, as you put it, their cup is too full, and they are terrified to empty it. Brilliant post, my friend. contains psychoanalysiswhich are thoughts thinking thoughts about thoughts, and is therefore delusion. Contains psychoanalysis(Takes one to know one )
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