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Post by jasonl on Jun 18, 2011 16:20:44 GMT -5
In terms of expectations, I think its helpful to understand the mechanics behind what an "expectation" actually is.
Expectation is a static word, while thinking is a dynamic process. Once an expectation is noticed, understanding the underlying dynamics of the thinking surrounding that expectation seems like a worthwhile thing to do.
What is an expectation? Do all expectations cause suffering? I expect it to rain tomorrow because the weatherman said so. Not really a big deal for anybody in particular. I expect the world to make me happy. That could be an issue for a certain someone that you actually aren't.
The relationship between desire and fear is obvious enough. If I desire A, then I'm going to fear not A. But this statement presumes there is a certain someone with a certain desire. This is what self seeking is, seeking oneself in a thought created image of not now. If you desire to be separate, can you honestly expect to not suffer? My guess would be no. If you desire to be a separate self, you will fear the repurcussions of not being that separate self, of losing your identity as something separate, of feeling emotional pain based on your own failure to understand your own ignorance, meaning your own false knowledge. Even a mind dabbling in no self realization is seeking to realize its own no selfness, which can't actually happen to anybody in particular.
It is self seeking, and not desire, which leads to fears based on a certain someone. The tendency to repress thought and emotion is coupled into self seeking. If things aren't unfolding as I want them to, I will unconsciously repress my own thoughts and emotions, which causes the mind to unconsciously strive for what's expected that much more. Often times expectations are driven by repressed energy in the body, and unresolved conflicts in the mind. Put another way, its not your expectations that are the problem, but it is the "tendency to expect" which must be understood. Understanding the "tendency to repress" (tendency to expect's evil twin) might be a good place to start, moving backward.
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Post by enigma on Jun 18, 2011 16:37:01 GMT -5
"Zenigma". HA!
"I had a great experience and all of a sudden I was thinking about starving people. What a great way to limit intense emotion. Counterbalance. If things get too good people sabatoge to avoid being exposed to intense emotion."
Yeah, that's a good thing to notice, and almost everybody does it, most unconsciously. It's a self protection mechanism but it can also be an introduction to what I call duality clipping. When it becomes clear that the happy/unhappy extremes are self defining, we realize that all the happy stuff ends up being balanced with unhappy stuff sooner or later. Of course this may happen in the same day (like a blissed out meditative state followed by a sucky day of 'normalcy') or it may happen over a lifetime (say, a miserable childhood and a pretty satisfactory adult life). The movement away from those extremes happens by itself to the extent that happiness and unhappiness are self created and, mutually defining.
Duality clipping is letting go of the desire to experience the highs, and therefore the inevitable lows, and turn attention toward what we might call contentment or Peace, which transcends the whole happy/unhappy duality, which of course doesn't mean happy and unhappy don't happen anymore. As Zen implies, this letting go won't happen as long as there is interest in the intense emotions, or as long as it's believed that the happy/unhappy balance can be permanently tilted in the happy direction. Lots of things can bring on happy states, and I sometimes tell folks 'This too shall pass', which nobody seems to like very much.
The odd thing is that purposely pursuing unhappiness is the same as pursuing happiness, though i don't spose anybody has actually done that experiment. Hehe. If this is clear, chasing one and running from the other pretty much stops. This 'stopping' can be helpful in the extreme. It is, in essence, the end of the search.
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Post by unveilable on Jun 18, 2011 16:58:00 GMT -5
Weird. This describes me. Life has also begun to take on the feeling of being one big playground. In my case though, there is some VERY subtle seeking still going on. So there are some very subtle dualities at play. ZD: Is the bodily knowing of who you are something that you either know or you dont or is it something that deepens? Instant or gradual? 6. People whose spiritual search has ended. They know who they are (through the body rather than the mind). These people are generally happy but may be sad if sad things happen. They don’t think about being happy or sad. If “bad” things happen to them, they don’t blame anyone or think the world should be different. They accept that periodically life sucks. They exhibit good humor, gratitude, contentment, humility, generosity, and kindness. They have no expectations at all, and that is why they are generally happy.
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Post by souley on Jun 18, 2011 17:57:10 GMT -5
Lots of things can bring on happy states, and I sometimes tell folks 'This too shall pass', which nobody seems to like very much. Haha! This thread is awesome.. big love to you all
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Post by kate on Jun 19, 2011 6:11:54 GMT -5
turn attention toward what we might call contentment or Peace, which transcends the whole happy/unhappy duality, which of course doesn't mean happy and unhappy don't happen anymore. As Zen implies, this letting go won't happen as long as there is interest in the intense emotions, or as long as it's believed that the happy/unhappy balance can be permanently tilted in the happy direction. This is interesting to me, enigma. Maybe you can say something more about it. I don't find myself chasing highs very much anymore. And I don't find myself getting floored by lows too often either. That said, there seems to be a pull towards entertaining myself with imaginings about all sorts of (mainly) future related things. This isn't the result of being unhappy but more so of being bored. Or perhaps not even bored, perhaps it's a fear of boredom. And so that turning of attention towards peace seems to be bypassed somehow. I suppose there is a fear of nothingness. A rushing to fill the void with stuff. Maybe because there is a sense that peace is emptiness and the idea of emptiness is terrifying. It's death, really. I never thought I was afraid of death but I guess I must be. Sometimes I watch myself playing around with life and it's like I am tinkering with a cipher that has no solution. In my heart I know there is no solution and yet some part of me is still convinced that I can be the first person to figure it out. What makes a person give up when things never seem that bad? Complete exhaustion and burnout could take decades. I guess circumstance can slap you down without warning. Your worst fears can be realised, but there's no guarantee of that. I don't know why I am so focused on some sort of end point. Maybe all I want is to know that it is okay to stop.
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Post by souley on Jun 19, 2011 10:45:26 GMT -5
Very insightful, that last post! I find that the more I see my own created suffering, the stronger I burn to resolve the issues. I didn't think of myself as suffering when I got interested in this stuff, but as it's seen more and more clearly it can even seem as one is getting worse. But it's just getting seen more and more clearly. Eventually it may be seen clearly that being engaged in the battle of the mind is pointless and very very very effortful, and plain wrong, and every effort to correct it is just more of the same stuff. And then finally the only way out is to just let it be, leave the battlefield as someone stated on the forum at some time:) That old bank of the river thing..
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Post by enigma on Jun 19, 2011 12:05:17 GMT -5
We scare ourselves with our own ideas. Death of the body is the ending of an appearance and appearances are continually ending. It's just that we have the idea that this particular appearance is really, really special. Hehe. Existential death isn't possible since existence was never born.
The idea of emptiness refers to what existence looks like to the conceptualizing mind. As existence is the source of qualities, it is prior to qualities and so has none. It's not invisible because mind can't see it but because there's nothing to see. Emptiness, or nothingness, or the void, is of no interest from an objectifying mind perspective, except that it seems to pose a threat to mind's objects. It's kinda like taking away a child's blocks. Emptiness isn't actually empty, it's life itself, existence itself, fullness, wholeness, completeness.
"What makes a person give up when things never seem that bad?"
Yeah, it's a good question. The process of disillusion is self regulating in a way. As long as reaching goals continues to make us happy, we keep doing that. As we discover more about the nature of how that works, we lose interest in it and (in general) it gets replaced by more dualistic peace and a deeper sense of relaxation and contentment. Life may get easier and simpler and along with all the drama goes much of the motivation to make it better or to escape the 'drama trauma'. There's still a discontent, which may grow since by now we can smell the salty air and we know the ocean is close by. (Maybe just over the next hill! Hehe.)
With any luck, this is a different kind of urgency than the need to escape the suffering of life. Something much deeper moves and we aren't pushing so much as being pulled now. There's a sense of wonder and mystery and a kind of falling in love with whatever has you by the heart and is pulling you into it, because it is your own heart that you're being pulled by, and this is known in a non-conceptual way.
By now, mind has begun to fall back into it's proper role of organizing your day planner and isn't a part of this longing, so not only have you taken away it's blocks, you've brought a new baby brother into the house and mind has to fight for your attention. In a way, the sense of doom is the growing realization that mind has come as far as it can on your journey to the ocean. The salt is in the air and something wants to go but mind can't go along. This is when mind really starts jumping up and down and waving it's neurons and warning you that you're going to get lost and drown in the ocean or be eaten by sharks or whatever will distract your attention from the ocean. Maybe there's one more battle to be fought between love and fear.
Mind will try to pull you back into the banality of financial, relationship and health issues. Whatever it takes to make you say, 'Ohhh, yes that needs to be resolved before I can be free'. Of course, those are the mind games you're trying to get free of. Mind can't make you fall in love the way the longing to be free can, so it has to find a way to terrify you.
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Post by Portto on Jun 19, 2011 12:40:58 GMT -5
I agree that dissatisfaction is not really what Tolle means by the pain body. To me, he's referring to feelings that have been pushed back and not allowed full expression. I don't care for the term because, much like the term 'ego', folks tend to objectify it and go to war with it, which is the opposite of what needs to happen. Indeed, ego and the pain body are imagined/created on a moment-to-moment basis, so as long as we are fighting/analyzing them, they are well, alive, and kicking. I'm not sure what you mean by "feelings that have been pushed back." There's no storage box for these feelings, where they can stay intact until later.
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Post by Portto on Jun 19, 2011 12:54:08 GMT -5
Nice posts, Enigma! We scare ourselves with our own ideas. Death of the body is the ending of an appearance and appearances are continually ending. It's just that we have the idea that this particular appearance is really, really special. Hehe. Existential death isn't possible since existence was never born. We can also scare ourselves without any prior ideas at all, and then come up with 'explanations' for being scared.
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Post by Portto on Jun 19, 2011 13:03:06 GMT -5
A recurring theme in this thread is "preoccupation with existential issues." What's so special about existence?
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Post by heretic on Jun 19, 2011 13:25:28 GMT -5
Yesterday at 3:40pm, zendancer wrote: People whose spiritual search has ended. They know who they are (through the body rather than the mind). These people are generally happy but may be sad if sad things happen. They don’t think about being happy or sad. If “bad” things happen to them, they don’t blame anyone or think the world should be different. They accept that periodically life sucks. They exhibit good humor, gratitude, contentment, humility, generosity, and kindness. They have no expectations at all, and that is why they are generally happy. ================================ Today at 6:11am kate wrote: I don't know why I am so focused on some sort of end point. Maybe all I want is to know that it is okay to stop. ================================ Today at 10:45 souley wrote: Eventually it may be seen clearly that being engaged in the battle of the mind is pointless and very very very effortful, and plain wrong, and every effort to correct it is just more of the same stuff. And then finally the only way out is to just let it be, leave the battlefield as someone stated on the forum at some time ================================= I simply love what these three posts are poitning (otherwise known as pointing) at! We all have desires all the time. Our desire nature is the thread which eventually leads us back to the real. It's pretty tough to alchemize love and judgement.
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Post by enigma on Jun 19, 2011 13:30:04 GMT -5
I agree that dissatisfaction is not really what Tolle means by the pain body. To me, he's referring to feelings that have been pushed back and not allowed full expression. I don't care for the term because, much like the term 'ego', folks tend to objectify it and go to war with it, which is the opposite of what needs to happen. Indeed, ego and the pain body are imagined/created on a moment-to-moment basis, so as long as we are fighting/analyzing them, they are well, alive, and kicking. I'm not sure what you mean by "feelings that have been pushed back." There's no storage box for these feelings, where they can stay intact until later. Undesirable feelings are often just ignored with the idea that they don't have to be experienced, but the thoughts that ignite them are still happening. If they are also ignored there's still a thought-feeling movement happening just beneath the level of conscious awareness that is affecting the body and coloring conscious perception. The 'storage box' is memory.
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Post by enigma on Jun 19, 2011 13:36:09 GMT -5
Nice posts, Enigma! We scare ourselves with our own ideas. Death of the body is the ending of an appearance and appearances are continually ending. It's just that we have the idea that this particular appearance is really, really special. Hehe. Existential death isn't possible since existence was never born. We can also scare ourselves without any prior ideas at all, and then come up with 'explanations' for being scared. True nuff, though there's always a motivation. Sometimes we just like to scare ourselves.
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Post by enigma on Jun 19, 2011 13:38:26 GMT -5
A recurring theme in this thread is "preoccupation with existential issues." What's so special about existence? Wouldn't existence be the most special thingy possible?
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Post by zendancer on Jun 19, 2011 14:26:47 GMT -5
Weird. This describes me. Life has also begun to take on the feeling of being one big playground. In my case though, there is some VERY subtle seeking still going on. So there are some very subtle dualities at play. ZD: Is the bodily knowing of who you are something that you either know or you dont or is it something that deepens? Instant or gradual? 6. People whose spiritual search has ended. They know who they are (through the body rather than the mind). These people are generally happy but may be sad if sad things happen. They don’t think about being happy or sad. If “bad” things happen to them, they don’t blame anyone or think the world should be different. They accept that periodically life sucks. They exhibit good humor, gratitude, contentment, humility, generosity, and kindness. They have no expectations at all, and that is why they are generally happy. The body-knowing I spoke of results from a realization that the seeker was imaginary and that the True Seeker was the entire process of reality. One's intellectualized identity as a separate entity thereby evaporates and one realizes that "what is" is All. This event happens instantly. Suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye the "I" is seen for what it is--an imaginary phantom-- and an entire complex of thought processes related to selfhood no longer have a center from which to emanate.
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