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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2011 12:40:05 GMT -5
Yeah, no idea is ultimately true. Ideas are only valid in a given context, and in that context they can be objectively or subjectively true or false, but what's true in one context can be false in another. The whole idea of true and false loses it's meaning at some point and is replaced by the expansion into progressively larger contexts.
The idea that folks should behave in certain ways in order to try to maintain harmony in a relationship (like compromise, tolerance, forgiveness, expectations) is perfectly valid for folks who are approaching a relationship with a certain amount of fear, judgment and need, but none of these things are part of a more 'genuine' relationship in which fear, judgment and need are absent. Compromise is replaced by an effortless and natural consideration. Tolerance is replaced by acceptance and appreciation. Forgiveness becomes unnecessary in the absence of judgment and expectations.
So what's true? It depends on where you're looking from and what you're looking at.
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Post by kate on Jun 12, 2011 19:30:51 GMT -5
I can see how noticing the function of expectations can change the way I handle them, that maybe interest in certain expectations can decrease, but with fear at the root it doesn't seem like it is possible to function entirely without expectation as long as fear is there. There will always be the desire to interfere.
I guess it comes down to looking at the thought that is fueling the fear and establishing whether or not it is actually true (there's just so many of the d**n things!) It seems like I'm always seeing that thoughts aren't true and yet somehow I still get sucked into believing them again. I don't know whether that means I'm not really seeing that they aren't true or whether there is part of me that secretly doesn't want to stop playing the game. Maybe I'm just peeking at them through my fingers. It is pretty scary.
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2011 21:15:31 GMT -5
I love the openness and self honesty in your posts, Kate. What happened for me was simply self love. At the same time that I was absolutely content with my own company, Marie came storming into my heart from nowhere as though the lynch pin that held together my 'defense against Love' was removed and it came rushing in. I had no expectations but i could see what was happening and by then i knew why, so i let it happen.
And so there was no foundation of expectation or need on either of our parts as we were empty; we had both been emptied by the trauma of expectation from previous relationships and had no interest in any of that. In this emptiness Love flows, and in our devotion to Love we remain empty, and there is harmony and gratitude. That's all that's asked of us; to stay the hell out of the way, which is effortless. Marie and I play like children with more silliness than you can imagine, and the un-asked-for guarantee that we will always have a place in each other's hearts no matter what happens.
So I guess the answer to the dilemma of how to truly love another is to learn to truly love ourselves.
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Post by kate on Jun 12, 2011 23:37:12 GMT -5
This is what I have been starting to suspect over the past couple of days. Don’t have a prescription for that, do you? I wonder why the idea of learning to truly love myself is so scary. It seems like the scariest thing of all. I don’t know if I’m afraid I’ll fail at it completely or what it is. I think maybe I’m scared that if I truly love myself then I will lose the love of others. I actually remember in very early childhood the point that I realised that to gain the “love” and approval of others I had to fall in with their ideas about how things should be and how I should be. I remember making a very conscious decision to do just that to spare myself being on the outer. I joined the game and deferred to all things external to determine whether love should be let in. Contemplating giving up the game is a very recent thing for me after decades of going along with it. I suppose it’s scary to realise you need to go back the way you came and that in some respects this will mean being on the outer again.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2011 0:31:45 GMT -5
"Going back the way we came". Yeah, that's it, really. So much for cleverness, huh? In general terms, not meaning you necessarily, the first step to self love would mean being conscious. We can't accept what we're trying to hide from ourselves unconsciously. That's what the reflecting is for, and it mostly what it really means to be standing on the bank of the river watching the thoughts and feelings. Nothing can escape your noticing because out of that hidden stuff comes projections and needs that aren't even properly identified.
Once fully conscious, we own all of our own feelings and withdraw all projections, and now we're likely faced with fewer judgments of others but more judgment of self as well as the inability to avoid our own conscious fears. This is where most folks probly learn what surrender is really about, because there's no escape, and there's really no solution for the person.
The answer to judgment, whether it is of the self or other, is to realize you are not a person. You have no volition, no free will, no control, and are not responsible for anything you've ever done or failed to do. In this clarity, all self judgment is released, and by extension, all judgment of other. In the absence of self judgment there is self acceptance, which is self love.
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Post by kate on Jun 13, 2011 3:08:59 GMT -5
I've noticed that life has started to mess with my attempts to hide things from myself. "Oh, you’re okay with [insert issue/person/fear/situation] are you? You've accepted that now? Sure. Okay. Well let's see how you go with this" Actually it's not really an external thing, I bring it about myself…in that non-volitional way of course. Everything gets dragged kicking and screaming into the light. I find this terrifying but I also realise that it's happening because part of me wants it and doesn't care how painful or upsetting or chaotic the consequences are. I see the significance of surrender but when confronted by the bigger fears I have I tend to run away. Then later I see the opportunity that was there and decide next time will be different. But I always end up running again. Haha! That's okay though, because I can run but I can't hide. Sometimes I have felt like I have bumped up against the edge of the realisation that I am not a person but it's not something I see clearly. It's not the way I know myself.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 13, 2011 8:48:59 GMT -5
Kate: "To thine own self be true," and let the chips fall where they may. Every time we do something out of obligation, or the need for security, or the fear that other people might disapprove of us if we don't meet their expectations, we add another bar to our prison cell. Real freedom is found in accepting the truth of who we are and acting accordingly. If your friends and family can't accept the true you, then that is their loss.
At one time I was at a big luncheon that included a preacher's wife. She said (with barely suppressed anger), "I wish that I could go to church just one time because I wanted to and not because I have to." Wow! What a statement. I knew her family and I realized that she had attended church for more than fifty years out a sense of obligation and need to satisfy everyone's expectations rather than out of a genuine desire to attend. Think of the joy and freedom she gave up in order to meet other people's expectations. Ironically, if she had been true to herself, she might have enjoyed going to church rather than finding it a deadening obligation. What would have happened if she had said, "Sorry folks, but I'm not going back to church until I feel like it." Her family and friends might have had a big problem with that, but can you sense the potential freedom and power in that proclamation?
One person I know began fighting her way to freedom by breaking tiny obligations and gradually working up to bigger ones. I would suggest going at whatever pace feels comfortable to you, but bring consciousness and honesty to each situation. If you're not brave enough to be true to yourself in particular situations, at least be honest with yourself about what's happening. Say to yourself, "Okay, I don;t really want to do this, but I'm doing it because my ideas about other peoples' ideas about me are more important than doing what my heart tells me is true." Sooner or later you may become disgusted with that kind of life and start moving toward something truer.
If you stay focused on the present moment, it will make decisions easier. Simply ask yourself, "What must I be doing now?" Keep the mind from wandering off into the future with "what if" scenarios. Get in touch with the truth by silently listening to the body. It always knows what to do.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2011 9:16:45 GMT -5
There was a pattern for me of conscious struggle, and it was clear that it must end in surrender, yet nobody here to do that, and so I'd watch and wait. Not feeding the struggle and not running from it; just allowing, just being with it completely. After some time, sometimes days, a contraction in the belly, a short out-breath, a single tear, and it was done. Like a movement of energy, up and out. No thought involved. When it's done in complete allowance, it's done forever.
I don't know what surrender looks like to others, that's just what happened here.
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astarxy
Junior Member
Live and let live
Posts: 54
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Post by astarxy on Jun 13, 2011 10:45:02 GMT -5
And so there was no foundation of expectation or need on either of our parts as we were empty; we had both been emptied by the trauma of expectation from previous relationships and had no interest in any of that. i can so relate to your story, Enigma! expectations are a waste of time and energy, unless you're totally into feeling what you wish to experience.. but i guess we're more talking about planning the future here.. before i judged my ex, now i don't any more.. in a way i understand why he left.. now i'm in a relationship with someone, who's not that open (yet) to this kind of 'seeing things', so i need to go step by step.. we're meant for eachother, just that he doesn't really grasp it yet... be well*
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2011 11:25:07 GMT -5
And so there was no foundation of expectation or need on either of our parts as we were empty; we had both been emptied by the trauma of expectation from previous relationships and had no interest in any of that. i can so relate to your story, Enigma! expectations are a waste of time and energy, unless you're totally into feeling what you wish to experience.. but i guess we're more talking about planning the future here.. before i judged my ex, now i don't any more.. in a way i understand why he left.. now i'm in a relationship with someone, who's not that open (yet) to this kind of 'seeing things', so i need to go step by step.. we're meant for eachother, just that he doesn't really grasp it yet... be well* Well, i expect he'll get with the plan sooner or later. Hehe. When Marie and I first got together, she had phobias and panic attacks that would show up quite often, and now most of that is gone. She credits my help in transcending them, and yet I never had any intention to do that, so how did it happen? There is an open space here for her to do what she needs and wants to do. A comfortable space in which she can be who she is and move as she does, and in this space of trust she can see who she is being and why, and explore it openly and honestly. There's no battle happening outside of herself, so if it feels like a battle is happening, she knows where it's being waged.
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astarxy
Junior Member
Live and let live
Posts: 54
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Post by astarxy on Jun 13, 2011 11:53:45 GMT -5
Well, i expect he'll get with the plan sooner or later. Hehe. When Marie and I first got together, she had phobias and panic attacks that would show up quite often, and now most of that is gone. She credits my help in transcending them, and yet I never had any intention to do that, so how did it happen? There is an open space here for her to do what she needs and wants to do. A comfortable space in which she can be who she is and move as she does, and in this space of trust she can see who she is being and why, and explore it openly and honestly. There's no battle happening outside of herself, so if it feels like a battle is happening, she knows where it's being waged. exactly! space is the most you can give someone to develop, to just be.. it's an easy task if you love her/him deeply from your being.. he tells me i make him peaceful and calm... and i learn from him... every now and then i do step in between and tell him what to do, not trying to manipulate, but just letting him know which path to choose... many times other person can see better than you... blindness that arrives from indetifying... i deal with it daily, it gets easier... the freedom is worth every second of time, energy, whatever... what do you have if you don't have inner peace? sometimes he gets too much for me, with his battles, so i step aside, but we both know it's temporarily... and he always deals with it... i'm glad... in the end we're on our own in this... battle or no battle, it's our own thing to do. Love.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 13, 2011 12:03:15 GMT -5
In my case, I was always pretty true to myself because that was encouraged when I was a child. My parents had very few expectations of me and they allowed me to "do my own thing." I never felt the weight of expectations until I was about twenty-five years old, but when they appeared, I generally rejected them and stayed true.
Later, I became faced with some big challenges, but I discovered that I could become silent, contemplate the issue, and the true way would become apparent. After discovering how to connect within oneself to that which is true, one develops trust in the process.
Later still, I faced a challenge so great that it threatened the very core of who I was. I had to make a decision whether to be true to myself or do something that I had deep antipathy for, but which would satisfy someone else's expectations. That decision could have ended my life as I knew it. I came to a point where the decision had to be made, and I decided to turn the issue over to the universe. I sat down in a chair, folded my hands in my lap, and began to contemplate the issue. The mind went silent for five hours. Suddenly, an image from a movie appeared in my mind, and the issue was totally resolved. I knew that I had to be true to myself, but if my decision ended the most important relationship in my life, I knew how to deal with the resultant pain. I communicated my decision, the expectation ceased, and the entire issue evaporated.
After that experience, I knew that I could totally trust the universe no matter what happens. When one discovers the bedrock of one's being, it no longer matters what happens. Everything can be taken away, but who one is will remain inviolate--unified, free, at peace, content, and in love with the truth of "what is."
In my case the image that appeared was that of Forrest Gump running back and forth across America in order to internalize and process the pain of a lost lover. I knew that no matter what happened I could put on my hiking boots and go climbing in the mountains however long it might take to process whatever psychic pain might appear in my life. I found it very satisfying to know that there is a way to handle whatever life might decide to throw at me.
I realize that lots of other people are raised in homes where burdensome expectations are the norm. All I can tell such people is that finding the truth of their being yields an incalculable reward. The truth can always be accessed by leaving the mind behind and diving deep into the core of one's being. Someone has said that the universe may be defined most accurately as "response to request." Jesus said the same thing when he said, "Seek and ye shall find." No matter what the issue is, if one sincerely asks the universe to communicate the truth, it will do so. It may not happen in five minutes, but the answer will sooner or later appear. It will appear in direct proportion to one's seriousness of intent and sincerety.
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astarxy
Junior Member
Live and let live
Posts: 54
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Post by astarxy on Jun 13, 2011 12:55:23 GMT -5
I knew that I had to be true to myself, but if my decision ended the most important relationship in my life, I knew how to deal with the resultant pain. it probably wasn't the most important relationship of your life... i thought so too in the past, now i'm laughing at myself... it's just emotional attachements, nothing else... you rule your emotions, not the other way round... you were true to yourself - the only real solution... congratulations. from all my heart. be well.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 13, 2011 13:42:54 GMT -5
Astarxy: Well, all of that happened many years ago before I realized that who I AM is not who I thought I was. LOL. Today, things are simpler. I mentioned those events just to let people know that the truth is always close at hand, although it may take a bit of silence to access it. The mind is not very useful when one needs to know the truth. he he.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 13, 2011 15:15:58 GMT -5
Astarxy: Well, all of that happened many years ago before I realized that who I AM is not who I thought I was. LOL. Today, things are simpler. I mentioned those events just to let people know that the truth is always close at hand, although it may take a bit of silence to access it. The mind is not very useful when one needs to know the truth. he he. Funny thing that 'truth' thingy... The mind can't know it, and yet we are staring right at it... It couldn't have picked a better place to hide... ;D
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