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Post by zendancer on Jun 13, 2011 16:06:14 GMT -5
Astarxy: Well, all of that happened many years ago before I realized that who I AM is not who I thought I was. LOL. Today, things are simpler. I mentioned those events just to let people know that the truth is always close at hand, although it may take a bit of silence to access it. The mind is not very useful when one needs to know the truth. he he. Funny thing that 'truth' thingy... The mind can't know it, and yet we are staring right at it... It couldn't have picked a better place to hide... ;D So true!
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Post by kate on Jun 13, 2011 19:56:55 GMT -5
ZD: That’s a great story about making a choice between satisfying someone’s expectations and being true to yourself.
I notice that people’s expectations are often tied up with their anxieties. I know that when I am anxious about something and my partner seems genuinely at peace with the situation I find it hard to stay anxious. I suppose when I am anxious it is about uncertainty and when I am confronted with genuine clarity it acts to dissolve the anxiety.
“I found it very satisfying to know that there is a way to handle whatever life might decide to throw at me.”
Yes. I can see that one of the things that gets in the way of clear seeing and making choices is the fear of the consequences. The fear is almost always that I won’t be able to handle them. It’s a strange sort of belief to have because obviously I’ve handled the consequences of every choice I’ve made up until this point. I’m still here, no more debilitated that your average person. I can become a huge emotional and psychological contortionist in order to avoid choices that might lead to pain. Obviously this avoidance creates a stagnancy that can’t be avoided forever.
Interestingly enough I didn’t have all that many expectations placed on me growing up. I did have one parent, my mother, who has always been a very anxious person. This can be seen to this day in her overuse of the word ‘disastrous’. Disaster is lurking behind every corner and one wrong move could see it appear and wreck havoc on your life. So I guess I have problems trusting my own choices and a conditioned belief that life is all about doing whatever you can to insure nothing goes wrong.
I think I imagine that certain expectations exist when they don’t at all and maybe this is about trying to pre-empt something. I had a wake-up call in regards to this last week when I was sitting on a train thinking about a particular friend who has been going through a rough time. My thoughts went something like this: “Gee, I haven’t really been too available for that person lately. She probably thinks I’ve been neglecting her and I don’t care. But I have had things to do that I haven’t been able to avoid! It’s not fair that she should think ill of me just because I’ve been busy!” This ridiculous thought cycle between feeling guilty and defensive went on for five minutes or so until it was interrupted by my phone beeping. The friend I was thinking about, who had flown out of the country for a holiday a few days earlier, had sent me a text message telling me what a great friend I am and how much she loves me! I felt pretty stupid after that!
Enigma: “There was a pattern for me of conscious struggle, and it was clear that it must end in surrender, yet nobody here to do that, and so I'd watch and wait. Not feeding the struggle and not running from it; just allowing, just being with it completely. After some time, sometimes days, a contraction in the belly, a short out-breath, a single tear, and it was done. Like a movement of energy, up and out. No thought involved. When it's done in complete allowance, it's done forever.”
I have seen this in myself with certain things I have been able to surrender to. I used to be someone who, if I was upset enough, could lie on my bed crying all day. Sometimes for days at a time. There were periods where this was the norm. These days it just seems impossible, even when there have been times when I thought to lie in bed all day and cry was exactly what I wanted to do. It seems that when I accept the situation instead of resisting it the outward emotional response will just switch off like a tap at a certain point and that’s it, it’s done. More and more lately this happens quite quickly, in a minute or less.
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Post by heretic on Jun 15, 2011 8:39:53 GMT -5
This is such a wonderful thread to read. It's as though the whole of it is flowing through such simple, open awareness. Loverly
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astarxy
Junior Member
Live and let live
Posts: 54
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Post by astarxy on Jun 15, 2011 12:57:29 GMT -5
“I found it very satisfying to know that there is a way to handle whatever life might decide to throw at me.” like someone already nicely wrote in the forum somewhere... you'll have to remind yourself about this every now or then... because when we're satisfied we tend to forget to be grateful and 'still'... just be aware all the time, or as much as possible... in time it'll grow on you... wish you alllll the best, really.
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Post by kate on Jun 15, 2011 20:30:50 GMT -5
"when we're satisfied we tend to forget to be grateful and 'still'"
My experience is that it is dissatisfaction that leads to a lack of gratitude and stillness. It is the idea that something is wrong or lacking, that something needs to be fixed or improved or expanded, that leads to constant striving and effort.
Perpetual dissatisfaction seems to me to be the fuel of the world. There is a line from the preface to A Course in Miracles that has stuck in my head ever since I first read it. Helen Schuman, who was a research psychologist said that when she was teaching students one of the things she would say to them about basic human psychology is that the only reason anyone does anything is because they think that in doing so they will be better off.
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astarxy
Junior Member
Live and let live
Posts: 54
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Post by astarxy on Jun 17, 2011 22:44:21 GMT -5
"when we're satisfied we tend to forget to be grateful and 'still'" My experience is that it is dissatisfaction that leads to a lack of gratitude and stillness. It is the idea that something is wrong or lacking, that something needs to be fixed or improved or expanded, that leads to constant striving and effort. Perpetual dissatisfaction seems to me to be the fuel of the world. There is a line from the preface to A Course in Miracles that has stuck in my head ever since I first read it. Helen Schuman, who was a research psychologist said that when she was teaching students one of the things she would say to them about basic human psychology is that the only reason anyone does anything is because they think that in doing so they will be better off. might be... but we usually don't go 'searching for ouselves' when life's running smoothly for us... what you call perpetual dissatisfaction is what E.Tolle calls pain body... full of them everywhere you go... as for your quote, true... we go for good feelings... be well.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 17, 2011 22:54:02 GMT -5
"when we're satisfied we tend to forget to be grateful and 'still'" My experience is that it is dissatisfaction that leads to a lack of gratitude and stillness. It is the idea that something is wrong or lacking, that something needs to be fixed or improved or expanded, that leads to constant striving and effort. Perpetual dissatisfaction seems to me to be the fuel of the world. There is a line from the preface to A Course in Miracles that has stuck in my head ever since I first read it. Helen Schuman, who was a research psychologist said that when she was teaching students one of the things she would say to them about basic human psychology is that the only reason anyone does anything is because they think that in doing so they will be better off. might be... but we usually don't go 'searching for ouselves' when life's running smoothly for us... what you call perpetual dissatisfaction is what E.Tolle calls pain body... full of them everywhere you go... as for your quote, true... we go for good feelings... be well. Kate the hammer, hitting the nail... It's all true, why? Because when we are in the Love cycle, all is well... But when we are in the pain cycle, all is hell... That which is aware of the cycle deserves better... You are far greater than you can even imagine... But there is no way you can know that, and so your mind is your best friend... When you realize he's your jailer, you'll kick his ass out of town... ;D
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Post by kate on Jun 18, 2011 2:28:24 GMT -5
"when we're satisfied we tend to forget to be grateful and 'still'" My experience is that it is dissatisfaction that leads to a lack of gratitude and stillness. It is the idea that something is wrong or lacking, that something needs to be fixed or improved or expanded, that leads to constant striving and effort. Perpetual dissatisfaction seems to me to be the fuel of the world. There is a line from the preface to A Course in Miracles that has stuck in my head ever since I first read it. Helen Schuman, who was a research psychologist said that when she was teaching students one of the things she would say to them about basic human psychology is that the only reason anyone does anything is because they think that in doing so they will be better off. might be... but we usually don't go 'searching for ouselves' when life's running smoothly for us... what you call perpetual dissatisfaction is what E.Tolle calls pain body... full of them everywhere you go... as for your quote, true... we go for good feelings... be well. Life running smoothly, from what I see, doesn't remove the sense of dissatisfaction in most people. And if it does it is very short lived before the idea that something is still lacking kicks in. Sure, a desire to end suffering is a big spiritual motivation for many people, but you also don't need to read too many stories of the spiritual search to find examples of the "Everything in my life was great but it just wasn't enough" kind. I feel no need to guard against satisfaction because I don't believe permanent satisfaction is possible as long as there isn't a clear seeing of what I really am. What I am talking about here is different to what Tolle talks about when he talks about the pain-body, which he describes as an accumulation of residual pain that becomes lodged in the body and mind. I don't see the dissatisfaction I am talking about as the result of residual pain, but the result of being cut off from the understanding of who we really are. The mistaken sense that we are incomplete, lacking, in constant need of something more.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 18, 2011 5:05:38 GMT -5
Pain body, sense of lacking something.....thinking there is someone there to do all this feeling.....it's all the same stuff Kate. It's all mind gibberish covering up the stillness that is present at all times and in everything. There is stillness and love despite the thoughts you have that tell you otherwise in your dissatisfaction, though hard to see while you are experiencing it. Hahaha.
Be the dissatisfaction. Embrace it with open arms. And your opinion of it showing up just might change after a while. Maybe it's not bad to be dissatisfied.
Do the same with this feeling of lacking. Embrace it. Really feel it. Mock internal dialogue "wow I am lacking something that these others seem to understand. That is awesome. I feel bummed. That is awesome. I want to understand so I won't have all these issues with others expectations. Hmmmm hasn't happened yet. That is awesome. Oh look, a fly......"
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Post by kate on Jun 18, 2011 6:01:42 GMT -5
Well if we're going to communicate here then there's no other way to do that without using concepts and what you call "mind stuff". In doing that I think it's important that there's clarity on what is being spoken about and it seemed that there was confusion there so I was trying to clarify. Because on the level of communicating and using words and concepts, it's not all the same stuff at all.
Just to clarify again, I wasn't talking about my own situation specifically in relation to dissatisfaction, but the general situation I see with almost everyone (myself included). I was doing so to explain why I don't feel that satisfaction is something I need to be wary of.
Beyond that, I can see the truth in much of what you say there.
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Post by enigma on Jun 18, 2011 12:06:00 GMT -5
I agree that dissatisfaction is not really what Tolle means by the pain body. To me, he's referring to feelings that have been pushed back and not allowed full expression. I don't care for the term because, much like the term 'ego', folks tend to objectify it and go to war with it, which is the opposite of what needs to happen.
As for dissatisfaction, it's already the result of 'your opinion about' other things, and it really IS a bad thing because you have subjectively defined it as such. Kinda like saying 'Hey, maybe suffering is really okay.' The way you can tell it's not okay is that you call it suffering. Dissatisfaction=suffering=not okay. What needs to be embraced is what is happening, not your mental conclusions about what's happening. Hehe.
In the same way we can't get to oneness by separating everything and then trying to superglue it back together somehow, we can't decide something is unacceptable and then embrace the unacceptability of it. That place of contentment lies prior to the idea of discontent. Somehow, that dissatisfaction must not arise to begin with, because once it does, it cannot be made satisfactory. The only thing that can happen is surrendering the struggle until the next time, and this will happen when the struggle becomes more dissatisfying than the thing you're dissatisfied with.
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Post by enigma on Jun 18, 2011 12:47:38 GMT -5
Life running smoothly, from what I see, doesn't remove the sense of dissatisfaction in most people. And if it does it is very short lived before the idea that something is still lacking kicks in. Sure, a desire to end suffering is a big spiritual motivation for many people, but you also don't need to read too many stories of the spiritual search to find examples of the "Everything in my life was great but it just wasn't enough" kind. I feel no need to guard against satisfaction because I don't believe permanent satisfaction is possible as long as there isn't a clear seeing of what I really am. Yeah, we create a psuedo mental world, then step into it, and quite naturally find it unsatisfying. Unfortunately, we can't just step out of that mental world because we come to believe in the reality of it. This is the loss of innocence, and innocence once lost cannot be regained, and must be transcended, which means seeing the truth of the matter, which is that the mental world is just an idea. This idea based world doesn't get replaced with other ideas. In the absence of the belief in the ideas there is a sense of space and freedom, and this is the result of the falling away of the ideas and the constricting boundaries that they imply. All ideas form boundaries, which is why talking about what's actually going on can only point beyond beyond the boundaries, because nothing is actually going on. There's nothing to be said about that which has no boundaries.
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waddicalwabbit
Full Member
Let's all go down the wabbit hole
Posts: 125
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jun 18, 2011 13:10:33 GMT -5
We can't decide something is unacceptable and then embrace the unacceptability of it. That place of contentment lies prior to the idea of discontent. Somehow, that dissatisfaction must not arise to begin with, because once it does, it cannot be made satisfactory. The only thing that can happen is surrendering the struggle until the next time, and this will happen when the struggle becomes more dissatisfying than the thing you're dissatisfied with.
[/quote] Nice one, enigma.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 18, 2011 15:40:01 GMT -5
Interesting thread. Yep, people fall into lots of different categories based upon their ideas or lack thereof. Some of those categories might include:
1. People who are happy and existentially ignorant. People in this category are living in "a good dream," and they are unlikely to become interested in non-duality unless their good dream turns into a bad dream. They are often attached to a strong belief system which often makes them think that they have earned their good fortune (I've met several rich people in this category who often say that they are blessed. LOL)
2. People who are unhappy and existentially ignorant, but who think that they would be happy if they could get what they want—the right lover, more money, a new car, a bigger house, fame, power, etc. These people are unlikely to become interested in non-duality unless they fall into despair about getting what they want, or they get what they want and discover that it isn’t what they REALLY want. People who get what they want and still feel empty or unhappy are epitomized in Peggy Lee’s song, (“Is This All There Is?”)
3. People who are either happy or unhappy and existentially ignorant, and who are dissatisfied with their understanding of existence. These are what we might call "seekers of truth." They are curious, and would like to understand "the big picture." Intuitively they sense that they are missing something important. They often visit different churches or investigate science and philosophy in an effort to find answers to their existential questions.
4. People who are unhappy with their life and existentially ignorant, but who have pretty much lost hope. They aren’t even searching for happiness. They have stuffed their feelings and loathe the falseness of their pretenses. These are people who are probably afflicted with what Tolle calls “the pain body.” They often suffer deep despair and/or depression.
5. People who have heard about non-duality or non-dual spiritual traditions and are actively seeking understanding and/or enlightenment.
6. People whose spiritual search has ended. They know who they are (through the body rather than the mind). These people are generally happy but may be sad if sad things happen. They don’t think about being happy or sad. If “bad” things happen to them, they don’t blame anyone or think the world should be different. They accept that periodically life sucks. They exhibit good humor, gratitude, contentment, humility, generosity, and kindness. They have no expectations at all, and that is why they are generally happy.
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Post by loverofall on Jun 18, 2011 16:01:13 GMT -5
Its been a while. I have been dealing with many changes. Kate's post got me interested and of course the Zenigma posts point this mind away from itself.
Change does trigger fear. If we can't predict outcomes we get scared. Here is very serious truth for those that had trauma, the more emotional trauma the more we hate change because emotionally the mind goes worst case.
Anxiety thinking is a way the mind tries to control the future. The more you worry the more you think it won't happen. You can get addicted to created emotions just like drugs. If you grew up in anxiety you learned to control with anxiety.
Fairness is a big issue because we try to make the world fair when its not even close to fair. I mean dead babies every few seconds and Kim Kardashian asking for 170k in wedding gifts. It is those awarenesses that drove me here. The fact is everything is always all right unless we bring thought into it.
I'll end this post with a great insight I had recently. Intense emotion is scary if you have experienced bad intense emotion. I had a great experience and all of a sudden I was thinking about starving people. What a great way to limit intense emotion. Counterbalance. If things get too good people sabatoge to avoid being exposed to intense emotion.
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