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Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 15:58:43 GMT -5
TRF: I think we're talking about exactly the same thing. What I'm calling ATA is the body's direct sensory perception. When the body is looking at the world non-conceptually, it doesn't know (intellectually) what its looking at, and it is quite happy with that kind of not-knowing. Sculptors, painters, and poets use these multi-sensory aspects all the time, don't they? Love is a part of the creative equation, too. I'm not being difficult here, but I sense we're all saying the same thing, beyond mind.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 16:04:24 GMT -5
TRF: I think we're talking about exactly the same thing. What I'm calling ATA is the body's direct sensory perception. When the body is looking at the world non-conceptually, it doesn't know (intellectually) what its looking at, and it is quite happy with that kind of not-knowing. And yes, ATA is actually reversing the process that led to mind's dominance. I think the Tao Te Ching has a verse that goes something like this: The average man accumulates knowledge about the world bit by bit, While a student of Tao removes knowledge of the world bit by bit Until finally he attains the essence of Tao and moves in accordance with it. ZD, Yes, I think we are, except for one small difference... Is there a difference between "looking at the world non-conceptually" or "looking at a non-conceptual world"? Maybe it's just the way your phrasing it or are you making a distinction?...
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Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 16:49:41 GMT -5
TRF: I think we're talking about exactly the same thing. What I'm calling ATA is the body's direct sensory perception. When the body is looking at the world non-conceptually, it doesn't know (intellectually) what its looking at, and it is quite happy with that kind of not-knowing. And yes, ATA is actually reversing the process that led to mind's dominance. I think the Tao Te Ching has a verse that goes something like this: The average man accumulates knowledge about the world bit by bit, While a student of Tao removes knowledge of the world bit by bit Until finally he attains the essence of Tao and moves in accordance with it. ZD, Yes, I think we are, except for one small difference... Is there a difference between "looking at the world non-conceptually" or "looking at a non-conceptual world"? Maybe it's just the way your phrasing it or are you making a distinction?...
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Post by Portto on Jun 11, 2011 17:21:19 GMT -5
Is there a difference between "looking at the world non-conceptually" or "looking at a non-conceptual world"? There's only this one big world and looking is one of the things that happen in it. There's nothing looking from outside the world.
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Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2011 18:44:19 GMT -5
In our squirrel satsang today, Marie was wondering how she can be one with me and the trees and such. I said you can't. You're insisting that you're separate and then trying to put the imaginary parts together.
I tried several approaches which all failed miserably, then i explained that all the parts are just different expressions of oneness and started waving my arms and talking (whining, actually. Hehe) about how i don't understand how this arm waving can be one with the words spoken. I said, oneness is what IS, just before you start separating everything in your mind. The entire spiritual process is about seeing through these assumptions.
She got that.
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Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 18:54:50 GMT -5
That's one beautiful squirrel.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 19:10:51 GMT -5
Is there a difference between "looking at the world non-conceptually" or "looking at a non-conceptual world"? There's only this one big world and looking is one of the things that happen in it. There's nothing looking from outside the world. What if 'one big world' is only a description of the non conceptual world, and that it keeps you from seeing the truth, that is far greater than you could even imagine? And that there's 'nothing' looking from outside that description 'except' the non conceptual awareness, that uses your body to experience that unfathomable truth and reality?
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Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2011 19:37:15 GMT -5
That's one beautiful squirrel. We actually had 5 squirrels in attendance today, but of course that's an illusion. Hehe.
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Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 19:52:50 GMT -5
That's one beautiful squirrel. We actually had 5 squirrels in attendance today, but of course that's an illusion. Hehe. We have a bird feeder right outside the window where I am typing right now, and in it is the one squirrel. Has to be the same one you were in satsang with. At the moment, he is eating off of an ear of corn which was placed there about an hour ago. I hope he doesn't pull that 5 squirrels thing, again. ;D
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Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 21:27:56 GMT -5
In our squirrel satsang today, Marie was wondering how she can be one with me and the trees and such. I said you can't. You're insisting that you're separate and then trying to put the imaginary parts together. I tried several approaches which all failed miserably, then i explained that all the parts are just different expressions of oneness and started waving my arms and talking (whining, actually. Hehe) about how i don't understand how this arm waving can be one with the words spoken. I said, oneness is what IS, just before you start separating everything in your mind. The entire spiritual process is about seeing through these assumptions. She got that. Yes, all squirrels are the non conceptual awareness, of the non conceptual world. A nutty world that is the homogeneous truth and reality that we conceptualize as oneness... Her body, yours, and every sentient beings body, are the instruments the non conceptual awareness uses, to experience itself through the conceptualization of the mind. As you correctly stated, conceptualizing oneness, only prevents you from 'knowing' oneness. But not 'experiencing' oneness... The reason being is that the body is always in harmony with that non conceptual truth and reality, even in this very moment... Sounds like squirrel satsang is where all the 'non conceptual' nuts hang out...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2011 10:25:05 GMT -5
average moderately well-balanced adult AMWBA! This hit some button. Makes sense -- it explains why so many folks "fill their plates" with lots and lots of activities...trying to minimize the time when their minds will jerk them around. One thing that I'm in awe about with kids is how naturally forgiving they are. It's like holding a grudge just doesn't come up as a possibility. There can be wariness -- not wanting to be hurt again -- but there is no extra mind-drama going on. The natural drive to connect completely dwarfs it. Below, I believe this is the same as what you refer to as 'coming empty' to the relationship.. "Reflective," as a descriptor of someone, is normally used for AMWBAs as a good thing -- someone who keeps their ego in check, maybe? If someone is going to be a mind-slave, in duality, it's nice that they aren't too annoying at least.
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2011 13:20:36 GMT -5
Yeah, and that plate filling involves a lot of suppression, which leads to more intense plate filling as that suppressed material naturally tries to find expression and move, and so there's a frantic busy-ness with an undercurrent of anxiety about which nothing is understood, which describes our culture pretty well. Sometimes I tell these folks that the first thing that has to happen is to stop, sit down on the kitchen floor and cry until you can't cry anymore.
What naturally happens next is that 'reflection' you're talking about, which is appropriate for where that person is at the moment. (Usually sitting on the kitchen floor sobbing like a helpless child) Welcoming those thoughts and feelings and encountering them directly is a necessary step.
Of course, this is not to be confused with what ZD is talking about. Once one is conscious and isn't trying to avoid anything and has seen through the working on 'ego issues' as the improvement of an illusion, then the reflecting process itself becomes the next obstacle to be encountered. One then re-engages the world, not as a distraction from facing one's own fears and illusions, but simply because the conceptual world is not the actual world.
Essentially, it's a reversal of the process that occurred from childhood to adulthood.
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