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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 13:19:32 GMT -5
So I guess my wish in this thread is to hear you guys' stories about how the sneaky ego back-door-ed you and managed to create a false you again without awareness seeing it. thanks for this story OHC, I really appreciate the openness and honesty. I have too many stories like this to tell. they go on and on and on. And right now, in this very post, another one is forming.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 8, 2011 14:19:38 GMT -5
In Zen, "passing through the gateless gate" usually refers to one's first penetration, a kensho, into the world of oneness. It breaks the unconscious attachment to the conception of form and void. For the first time one realizes the concrete difference between ideas ABOUT reality and reality itself. In my own case, I can remember the exact moment, and my astonishment, when I first saw the difference between my idea of trees and what trees ARE. I never again thought of trees in the same way as before. PTTGG is both a penetration into oneness, and a confirmatory experience, but it rarely frees one from selfhood (because selfhood seems to be the deepest attachment peeps have). This body/mind appeared in 1943. It started attending the actual in 1983. It passed through the GG in 1984. The end of the spiritual search and freedom did not occur until 1999. Only afterwards was it obvious that no one ever made any kind of effort, nor moved an inch in any direction. Nevertheless, today I still suggest persistence in ATA. I'll leave that paradox as a koan for those who like to contemplate koans. LOL Zen people distinguish between kensho (seeing into one's true nature--oneness), which may happen numerous times, and satori (freedom, the end of the spiritual search, and the end of any attempt to control the mind). With all due respect ZD, you haven't put one toe through the Gateless Gate, into the non-conceptual world.... You see, what you've accomplished, on the journey up the mountain of self realization, is a plateau, a lofty plateau, but still a plateau. You've awakened from the dream of the conceptual world (mind), and that's no small feat, but one that's readily available to anyone...hehe And from this plateau the view is great, so there is the temptation to stay here, and enjoy the view for the rest of your life. For some this is the greatest achievement possible and rightly so. For others the view is also beautiful, also enjoyed and then up the mountain they go. They are inspired by what the view might look like from the top. You see, traveling up from here though, you're exploring a new 'dream', the dream of the 'spirit'. Just as you constructed the dream of the conceptual world piece by piece, you must now construct the dream of the non-conceptual world, piece by painstaking piece... And so there is great angst, fear and trepidation for taking even the smallest of steps. You find yourself in a world where 'thinking' and the 'mind', are of little use to you. A world where you don't understand or know what your looking at. A world where your usual interpretations of the conceptual world, crumble and leave you incredibly vulnerable. And to make it worse, you have no guide, no resources, and nothing but your own personal power to rely on. It took you most of your life time to awaken from the dream of the conceptual world, (the mind) and now it will take you the rest of your life to awaken from the dream of the 'spirit' world. Respectfully TRF
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 14:30:03 GMT -5
In Zen, "passing through the gateless gate" usually refers to one's first penetration, a kensho, into the world of oneness. It breaks the unconscious attachment to the conception of form and void. For the first time one realizes the concrete difference between ideas ABOUT reality and reality itself. In my own case, I can remember the exact moment, and my astonishment, when I first saw the difference between my idea of trees and what trees ARE. I never again thought of trees in the same way as before. PTTGG is both a penetration into oneness, and a confirmatory experience, but it rarely frees one from selfhood (because selfhood seems to be the deepest attachment peeps have). This body/mind appeared in 1943. It started attending the actual in 1983. It passed through the GG in 1984. The end of the spiritual search and freedom did not occur until 1999. Only afterwards was it obvious that no one ever made any kind of effort, nor moved an inch in any direction. Nevertheless, today I still suggest persistence in ATA. I'll leave that paradox as a koan for those who like to contemplate koans. LOL Zen people distinguish between kensho (seeing into one's true nature--oneness), which may happen numerous times, and satori (freedom, the end of the spiritual search, and the end of any attempt to control the mind). one of the things i've been noticing over the last couple weeks is a lot less energy being put into ATA -- at least what I think is ATA. for a while now ATA had seemed to just roar into full consciousness. a sort of effortless noticing going on. pow! for lack of better descriptors, it had a similar flavor as being self-conscious. there was a hyper-consciousness about it. and one thing that it put in bas-relief was that there were several states of consciousness: 1. everyday, hohum -- the same sort of state i have when playing with kids, talking to folks doing pretty much 90% of everything 2. daydreaming 3. ATA -- purposeful but effortless, very aware of being aware, tuning into mostly sensations of the moment. recently i realized that #1 is it, "the natural state," and with that the spontaneous ATA stuff has faded. that #1 includes everything, actually, the full 100%. so now i'm wondering if the ATA sort of set up a false duality which ultimately pointed to the lack thereof? the other possibility here is that I'm just fading into mindless botdom. or perhaps it's too late. beep. ATA may feel a bit artificial at first, and it certainly seems to demand a great deal of purpose and energy, so Why do it? We do it in order to "come out of our heads" long enough to be able to clearly distinguish between the actual and the imaginary. The goal is to cease being a slave to mind. ATA does not involve being aware of being aware. To be aware of being aware requires reflection, and ATA is non-reflective. There is looking or listening without "checking." If we think, I am aware of X,"or, "I am aware of seeing X," this is not ATA. ATA is not-knowing awareness. We simply look and see without naming, or thinking, or commenting upon what is seen. What we see--the actual-- cannot be imagined. If there is pure looking, the observer and the observed are one; there is no separation. ATA is non dualistic because all imaginary states disappear in the action.
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Post by mamza on Jun 8, 2011 14:47:49 GMT -5
Challenge accepted! Hahaha. I predict a laugh in the future.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 14:52:39 GMT -5
TRF: Have a good trip, and best wishes.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 8, 2011 18:47:33 GMT -5
TRF: Have a good trip, and best wishes. Hahaha, you think I'm taking that trip??? I've peaked through the 'Gateless Gate' and you wouldn't catch me venturing in there for all the riches in the world. I'm still hanging onto this mountain ledge waiting for a Sherpa... Until then I'll just enjoy the view... ;D "Clinging to the deluded way of consciousness,
Students of the Way do not realize truth.
The seed of birth and death through endless eons:
The fool calls it the true original self."
Chinese Ch'an master Wu-men Hui-hai
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2011 20:29:38 GMT -5
ATA does not involve being aware of being aware. To be aware of being aware requires reflection, and ATA is non-reflective. There is looking or listening without "checking." If we think, I am aware of X,"or, "I am aware of seeing X," this is not ATA. ATA is not-knowing awareness. We simply look and see without naming, or thinking, or commenting upon what is seen. What we see--the actual-- cannot be imagined. If there is pure looking, the observer and the observed are one; there is no separation. ATA is non dualistic because all imaginary states disappear in the action. hmm...so there's unreflective/nonconceptual awareness (ATA), reflective/conceptual awareness (what I was misconstruing as ATA), and unconsciousness... if when i'm just doing ordinary stuff like playing with the kids, making dinner, cleaning, etc., and I can't put it into the first two categories, then it must be in the last category -- 'a slave to the mind' for example? if so, I seem to be becoming more slavish-to-the-mindish. 1. just today I was walking through some fantastic woods in the lush humidity of New England, full on rich smells and sounds, constantly bringing attention backto the sensations. Sustained attention didn't last too long but it was there. Being aware of the present moment, in all the richness of the sensations. it did take effort. 2. And later today, cleaning the kitchen, getting food on the table, etc...I can't say I was being aware of the present moment because I was just there doing stuff, I can't recall if I was in the moment or not. 3.And now reflecting while I type, briefly placing the attention in the moment to notice this clickety click click, there a thought goes by like "okay what's my point?" and then the typing ends. I'd have to say that #3 above resembles more like what was going on in #1 in that the attention had a very physical sensation object. And there is sustained effort to keep the attention on those sensations rising and falling. Yet #2 persists through them all because stuff is getting done without conscious attention to those actions. More than just autonomous stuff -- typing, thinking, identifying a bird. it's been kind of nice to be more in the just-doing-stuff mode and less in the hyper-intent-being-aware-of-the-present-moment thing. One is effortless, in the sense of not having to constantly shift my attention back. Just doing stuff. The other seems like part of the whole seeking biz, which i had been absolutely consumed by recently.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 10, 2011 4:54:16 GMT -5
Max: We use this forum to point toward the truth. What is the truth? It can be experienced, but it can't be spoken or conceived. Using words we can point to it by saying that there is only oneness manifesting just like this. We can also say that there are two worlds--a conceptual world created by mind and God's world, the world of the absolute. The reason we ATA is to help penetrate the illusions created by mind and gain clarity. Are there really two worlds? No, but this is one way to help explain what's going on.
Our everyday life is the truth, whether we are lost in illusion or wide awake. Whatever is happening is the truth. The problem is that mind and imagination keeps us trapped in an unreal world--a meta-reality of time, space, birth/death, selfhood, things, etc. ATA is a way to help us penetrate these illusions.
When we look at "what is" without reflection, we see reality, and we, as observers, disappear in the process of nonconceptual awareness. Duality is absent. When you play with your kids, without reflection, there is also oneness. Your personal existence and twoness only arises when you imagine that you are separate from the action. In the world of God there is no Max, no kids, no time or space and no cause and effect. Everything is unified, whole, sacred, and infinite.
When we seek the truth, we are overlooking the fact that we ARE the truth, itself, imagining that the truth is elsewhere. We do not realize who and what we are. Sages suggest various forms of ATA to help people escape from the illusions projected by mind. Psalms 46:10 states, "Be still and know that I am God." Everything important is included in that short verse. If we become silently non-reflective, we cease to reinforce the illusion of the ordinary world, and it becomes possible to see the real world. For most people this does not happen overnight, and that is why persistence is important.
Most of us have a myriad of bad mental habits. We spend hours each day fantasizing and reflecting about ourselves and our lives. Our bodies live in the real world, but our minds wander around in dreamworlds of our own creation. Waking up is the process of leaving mental dreamworlds behind in favor of the real world that is always here and now.
Who we THINK we are is a product of imagination. Who we REALLY are cannot be imagined. Take care.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 10, 2011 5:48:51 GMT -5
I gotta go to bed but I'm getting in on all this action on this thread tomorrow. Holy crap, TRF saying Zendancer is lost, ZD telling him to enjoy the trip up this mountain beyond the gate which TRF you can go ahead and just re-explain that one again cause I've never heard any sage teach about what you were talking about. I'm wondering if the air up there is getting too thin for ya? just teasin' buddy. But seriously please try again with your thoughts on that. I'm confused on what you mean. Waaaaawwhoooo!!! I started an awesome thread. Hahaha.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 7:46:29 GMT -5
Waaaaawwhoooo!!! I started an awesome thread. Hahaha. YOU ARE SO AWESOME (sorry!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2011 7:48:01 GMT -5
For most people this does not happen overnight, and that is why persistence is important. methinks this is what i'm trying to weasel out of!
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Post by zendancer on Jun 10, 2011 9:47:41 GMT -5
For most people this does not happen overnight, and that is why persistence is important. methinks this is what i'm trying to weasel out of! Ha ha. Yes, most of us want everything to happen fast, but our habits of mind were developed over years of steady (though unconscious) practice. The real challenge begins after we realize the situation we've gotten ourselves into. Most of us oscillate between periods of clarity and confusion for quite a while before clarity becomes dominant. There are also periods during which nothing seems to be happening, and this is when we have to decide if we are willing to settle down for the long haul. When we attend the actual, we are placing attention upon direct sensory perception--what we can see and hear. I suspect that it takes a certain minimum amount of ATA just to counterbalance the effect of all of our usual mind chatter. It takes even more ATA to stop treading water and move toward emptiness. The good news is that at some point the structures of thought supporting consensual reality will collapse because they are not being continually reinforced. After the collapse, which is usually sequential, one no longer has to purposely ATA or think about thinking. Everyday life becomes ordinary in an extraordinary way. Each person is different, so each person has a unique path. In my case the big breakthroughs occurred like this: 1. Saw through the illusion of thingness and realized that oneness underlies everything. 2. (seven months later) Saw through the illusion of meaning. 3. (five years later) Realized that the body was always doing what it had to do and that fantasies about the future were nothing more than fantasies. 4. (eight years later) Realized that there was nothing "I" could do to wake up other than ATA and living with as little reflection as possible. 5. (less than one year later) Realized that who I had thought I was had never existed, and that I was one-with "what is." This ended the spiritual search and resulted in freedom. Along the way there were many "dry" periods in which I was frustrated by what I perceived as a lack of progress. From what I have read in numerous spiritual biographies, this is very common. Patience and persistence are therefore very important. Today, the body/mind still spends a fair amount of time looking at the world non-conceptually, but it isn't done in order to attain anything; the body/mind is simply fascinated by the actual. So, perception shifts back and forth between the actual and the imaginary without attachment. Life is lived in a world of verbs rather than nouns. Everything that is happening is simply the vastness of "what is" doing whatever it does, and the more one lives in this way, the more one loves "what is." Or, perhaps we should say, "What is" loves its own isness.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 10, 2011 14:38:52 GMT -5
I gotta go to bed but I'm getting in on all this action on this thread tomorrow. Holy crap, TRF saying Zendancer is lost, ZD telling him to enjoy the trip up this mountain beyond the gate which TRF you can go ahead and just re-explain that one again cause I've never heard any sage teach about what you were talking about. I'm wondering if the air up there is getting too thin for ya? just teasin' buddy. But seriously please try again with your thoughts on that. I'm confused on what you mean. Waaaaawwhoooo!!! I started an awesome thread. Hahaha. The ‘Gateless Gate’ represents the Non-conceptual world, meaning seeing that world, before it takes the form of the conceptual world. It is in affect a direct perception of our reality without the use of the mind. It can be both presence and absence, but also neither. It is neither the self or the no-self, nor the absence of both self and no-self. Some say that it is both being and nonbeing and neither. Others say that is everything and yet it is nothing. It can be neither a negation nor an affirmation, as that would be a conceptualization and thus the truth of that reality, is gone. Thus the reality of the Gateless Gate or non-conceptual world, is that which is nameless and cannot even be named. At what level of the awakening process, would you place this reality in relation to the reality of being the witness to the conceptual world? Does the awareness of this non-conceptual world, and the avoidance of it, transcend it? Maybe I’m still waiting to hear from those peeps, as to what that actually means to them, to pass through the Non-conceptual world, or the ‘Gateless Gate’… Hope that helps...
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Post by enigma on Jun 10, 2011 19:51:11 GMT -5
"Maybe I’m still waiting to hear from those peeps, as to what that actually means to them, to pass through the Non-conceptual world, or the ‘Gateless Gate’…"
Me too! Apparently, i don't know what that term refers to. Not sure it matters, though.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 8:09:28 GMT -5
"Maybe I’m still waiting to hear from those peeps, as to what that actually means to them, to pass through the Non-conceptual world, or the ‘Gateless Gate’…" Me too! Apparently, i don't know what that term refers to. Not sure it matters, though. It certainly doesn't matter, but here is a bit more information about that term: "The Gateless Gate" is a somewhat incorrect English rendering of the title of a classic collection of 48 Zen koans, "The Mumonkan," written by a Zen Master named Wu-men. A more accurate rendering might be "The Gateless Barrier of the Zen Sect" or "The Gateless Entry into the Zen Sect" or "The Gateless Checkpoint of the Zen Sect." In essence, the author of the Mumonkan, wrote that anyone who wanted to penetrate the Zen world needed to pass through the 48 barriers represented by the 48 koans included in the booklet. It includes the Mu koan and many other well-known koans (existential test questions that cannot be answered using conceptual thought). A somewhat looser definition of the Gateless Gate is that it is an entry point into the world of the absolute. This is why some Zen folks say that it corresponds to the third ox-herding picture titled "Catching a glimpse of the Ox." The average person is conditioned to live in a thought-constructed world of apparent finite things and events. Some people are either dissatisfied with that understanding/portrayal of the world or they sense that something is missing in the conventional explanation of things. Call it "the spiritual impulse," or "intuition," or whatever, these people start searching for something deeper than the usual explanation. This is what Zen portrays in the first Ox-Herding Picture as "Searching for the Ox (the ox symbolizes non-duality or the absolute non-conceptual world). The second picture is titled "Finding the footprints of the Ox," and the third picture is titled, "Catching a glimpse of the Ox." Catching a glimpse of the absolute is called "kensho" by Zen folks, and that sort of experience can be quite mind-blowing. After a person has experienced his/her true nature--oneness, he/she knows unequivocally that the conceptual world is a fiction and can discern, to some degree, the difference between the real and the imaginary. It is therefore said that the person has passed through the gateless gate. Having an initial experience of oneness would probably not have satisfied Wu-men that someone had passed through his barriers, but if the experience thoroughly shattered the idea of separateness, it would satisfy some Zen teachers. I suspect that most people who pursue non-duality require many years of non-conceptual awareness and many insights, experiences, and realizations before there is non-abidance in the mind, a relaxation of being, and an at-one-ment with reality. In summary, the gateless gate is simply a descriptive term for some threshold of understanding/experience/realization concerning the conceptual world and the absolute world. After passing that threshold a person has tangibly verified (through the body) that reality is a unified whole and that "the ten thousand things" are an elaborate illusion conjured by mind. Once the mind gets hold of E.'s robin, it kills the truth and calls it "a robin." After one has passed through the gateless gate, what the robin was before it was a robin shines forth. Or, as Jesus put it, "Before Abraham was, I am."
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