|
Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2011 9:31:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Zen. Never having studied Zen, I didn't know the origin of the term. It seems it has been 'appropriated' by other teachings and given some different connotations.
|
|
|
Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 10:37:59 GMT -5
I love Wu-Men
One instant is eternity, eternity is the now, When you see through this one instant, you see through the one who sees. ======================================
Ten thousand flowers in spring, the moon in autumn, a cool breeze in summer, snow in winter-- If your mind is not clouded by unnecessary things, this is the best season of your life.
Two sure signs that his mind was not running ahead of his heart in anticipation or lagging behind in nostalgia.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 11:46:20 GMT -5
ATA does not involve being aware of being aware. To be aware of being aware requires reflection, and ATA is non-reflective. There is looking or listening without "checking." If we think, I am aware of X,"or, "I am aware of seeing X," this is not ATA. ATA is not-knowing awareness. We simply look and see without naming, or thinking, or commenting upon what is seen. What we see--the actual-- cannot be imagined. If there is pure looking, the observer and the observed are one; there is no separation. ATA is non dualistic because all imaginary states disappear in the action. hmm...so there's unreflective/nonconceptual awareness (ATA), reflective/conceptual awareness (what I was misconstruing as ATA), and unconsciousness... if when i'm just doing ordinary stuff like playing with the kids, making dinner, cleaning, etc., and I can't put it into the first two categories, then it must be in the last category -- 'a slave to the mind' for example? if so, I seem to be becoming more slavish-to-the-mindish. 1. just today I was walking through some fantastic woods in the lush humidity of New England, full on rich smells and sounds, constantly bringing attention backto the sensations. Sustained attention didn't last too long but it was there. Being aware of the present moment, in all the richness of the sensations. it did take effort. 2. And later today, cleaning the kitchen, getting food on the table, etc...I can't say I was being aware of the present moment because I was just there doing stuff, I can't recall if I was in the moment or not. 3.And now reflecting while I type, briefly placing the attention in the moment to notice this clickety click click, there a thought goes by like "okay what's my point?" and then the typing ends. I'd have to say that #3 above resembles more like what was going on in #1 in that the attention had a very physical sensation object. And there is sustained effort to keep the attention on those sensations rising and falling. Yet #2 persists through them all because stuff is getting done without conscious attention to those actions. More than just autonomous stuff -- typing, thinking, identifying a bird. it's been kind of nice to be more in the just-doing-stuff mode and less in the hyper-intent-being-aware-of-the-present-moment thing. One is effortless, in the sense of not having to constantly shift my attention back. Just doing stuff. The other seems like part of the whole seeking biz, which i had been absolutely consumed by recently. Max, I wanted to revisit this post because it brought up several interesting issues. You wrote that "it's kind of nice to be more in the just-doing-stuff mode and less in the hyper-intent-being aware of the present moment thing." That's true because its the default mode for the average moderately well-balanced adult and therefore feels effortless. Whether you are playing with your kids or doing the dishes, reality manifests "just like this" without too much thinking, or thinking about thinking. This default mode, however, is a kind of consensus trance-like state of mind because most adults think of themselves as separate entities living in a world of finite things and events. They don't know what underlies the world of appearances and therefore don't realize who they are and what's going on. In a sense, they only see one side of the coin. We say that most people are slaves to the mind because when they are not actively engaged in some activity, they often get unconsciously jerked around by their minds. They fantasize about the future, become attached to material possessions, judge themselves and others, and have lots of expectations about how life should be. They do not perceive the underlying context of human existence, so they are like puppets in a play who don;t know they're puppets, who don't know there is a play, and who don't know who the puppet-master is. Most of their suffering is generated by their thoughts and their beliefs concerning their thoughts. They see the world in dualistic terms of good/bad, right/wrong, up/down, existence/non-existence, etc. During the day the average adult shifts attention back and forth between reality and imagination, but isn't aware that this is happening, and isn't aware that more that 90% of attention is focused upon thoughts. Little children are also unaware of how attention is shifting, but 90% of their attention is focused upon reality. Little children are alive, relaxed, present, and happy because they are interacting with the world predominately through their bodies and sensory perception rather than their minds. ATA seems to take effort because it is not how we adults normally interact with the world. The more we ATA the easier and more natural it becomes. As we ATA and investigate how the mind influences how we perceive the world, we begin to see-through various illusions and become free of various mind-trips. We realize, for example, that day-dreaming and fantasizing takes us away from reality. We realize that judging other people or having expectations of them separates us from people. We realize the value of "coming empty" to everything. We realize that all worries are mind trips that waste time and distract us from action. Gradually, as we spend time ATA, we re-engage with the world and become people of action rather than reflection. We develop a deep love for what is real and a preference for reality above all things. We give up the past and future and focus on what is always here and now. Eventually, even selfhood recedes into the background and is no longer a source of interest. The end result is playing with our kids and washing the dishes, but those actions are then grounded in reality, so there is an unshakable foundation under our feet. We know who we are, and we know what to do. We revel in the perfection of "what is," and we enjoy the gift of life by living it fully. Sometimes we wander in the woods, desert, or mountains, and simply look. Sometimes we sit on the seashore and listen. Sometimes we go to work and do whatever needs to be done. Sometimes we think like crazy to solve particular problems, and sometimes we plan what needs to be done in the future. Our attention shifts back and forth between reality and thoughts effortlessly and without any need to control how that happens. We live in the void, serene and rapt, in accord with Tao. The phone rings. We answer it, and then we go do the next thing that needs to be done. Ta ta tum, ta ta dee....all is one, .......tee hee hee!
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 12:12:45 GMT -5
Once the mind gets hold of E.'s robin, it kills the truth and calls it "a robin." After one has passed through the gateless gate, what the robin was before it was a robin shines forth. Or, as Jesus put it, "Before Abraham was, I am." I was just wondering ZD, since you've passed through the 'gateless gate'. What 'does' the non conceptual awareness see when it looks at the non conceptual "robin" shining forth? I mean don't you have to have a 'concept' of stuff shining forth to recognize stuff shinning forth?
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 12:31:03 GMT -5
hmm...so there's unreflective/nonconceptual awareness (ATA), reflective/conceptual awareness (what I was misconstruing as ATA), and unconsciousness... if when i'm just doing ordinary stuff like playing with the kids, making dinner, cleaning, etc., and I can't put it into the first two categories, then it must be in the last category -- 'a slave to the mind' for example? if so, I seem to be becoming more slavish-to-the-mindish. 1. just today I was walking through some fantastic woods in the lush humidity of New England, full on rich smells and sounds, constantly bringing attention backto the sensations. Sustained attention didn't last too long but it was there. Being aware of the present moment, in all the richness of the sensations. it did take effort. 2. And later today, cleaning the kitchen, getting food on the table, etc...I can't say I was being aware of the present moment because I was just there doing stuff, I can't recall if I was in the moment or not. 3.And now reflecting while I type, briefly placing the attention in the moment to notice this clickety click click, there a thought goes by like "okay what's my point?" and then the typing ends. I'd have to say that #3 above resembles more like what was going on in #1 in that the attention had a very physical sensation object. And there is sustained effort to keep the attention on those sensations rising and falling. Yet #2 persists through them all because stuff is getting done without conscious attention to those actions. More than just autonomous stuff -- typing, thinking, identifying a bird. it's been kind of nice to be more in the just-doing-stuff mode and less in the hyper-intent-being-aware-of-the-present-moment thing. One is effortless, in the sense of not having to constantly shift my attention back. Just doing stuff. The other seems like part of the whole seeking biz, which i had been absolutely consumed by recently. Max, I wanted to revisit this post because it brought up several interesting issues. You wrote that "it's kind of nice to be more in the just-doing-stuff mode and less in the hyper-intent-being aware of the present moment thing." That's true because its the default mode for the average moderately well-balanced adult and therefore feels effortless. Whether you are playing with your kids or doing the dishes, reality manifests "just like this" without too much thinking, or thinking about thinking. This default mode, however, is a kind of consensus trance-like state of mind because most adults think of themselves as separate entities living in a world of finite things and events. They don't know what underlies the world of appearances and therefore don't realize who they are and what's going on. In a sense, they only see one side of the coin. We say that most people are slaves to the mind because when they are not actively engaged in some activity, they often get unconsciously jerked around by their minds. They fantasize about the future, become attached to material possessions, judge themselves and others, and have lots of expectations about how life should be. They do not perceive the underlying context of human existence, so they are like puppets in a play who don;t know they're puppets, who don't know there is a play, and who don't know who the puppet-master is. Most of their suffering is generated by their thoughts and their beliefs concerning their thoughts. They see the world in dualistic terms of good/bad, right/wrong, up/down, existence/non-existence, etc. During the day the average adult shifts attention back and forth between reality and imagination, but isn't aware that this is happening, and isn't aware that more that 90% of attention is focused upon thoughts. Little children are also unaware of how attention is shifting, but 90% of their attention is focused upon reality. Little children are alive, relaxed, present, and happy because they are interacting with the world predominately through their bodies and sensory perception rather than their minds. ATA seems to take effort because it is not how we adults normally interact with the world. The more we ATA the easier and more natural it becomes. As we ATA and investigate how the mind influences how we perceive the world, we begin to see-through various illusions and become free of various mind-trips. We realize, for example, that day-dreaming and fantasizing takes us away from reality. We realize that judging other people or having expectations of them separates us from people. We realize the value of "coming empty" to everything. We realize that all worries are mind trips that waste time and distract us from action. Gradually, as we spend time ATA, we re-engage with the world and become people of action rather than reflection. We develop a deep love for what is real and a preference for reality above all things. We give up the past and future and focus on what is always here and now. Eventually, even selfhood recedes into the background and is no longer a source of interest. The end result is playing with our kids and washing the dishes, but those actions are then grounded in reality, so there is an unshakable foundation under our feet. We know who we are, and we know what to do. We revel in the perfection of "what is," and we enjoy the gift of life by living it fully. Sometimes we wander in the woods, desert, or mountains, and simply look. Sometimes we sit on the seashore and listen. Sometimes we go to work and do whatever needs to be done. Sometimes we think like crazy to solve particular problems, and sometimes we plan what needs to be done in the future. Our attention shifts back and forth between reality and thoughts effortlessly and without any need to control how that happens. We live in the void, serene and rapt, in accord with Tao. The phone rings. We answer it, and then we go do the next thing that needs to be done. Ta ta tum, ta ta dee....all is one, .......tee hee hee! I think peeps have an idea about ATA, that it's some boring activity, sitting quietly, and not getting involved with any mind activity, like playing with the kids or planning out ones day. It's not like that at all and maybe ZD and Enigma could speak a little bit about that...
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2011 13:17:23 GMT -5
"I mean don't you have to have a 'concept' of stuff shining forth to recognize stuff shinning forth?"
I'm not sure I understand that, but it's interesting. In order to store an experience, or to talk about it, concepts are needed, but no concepts are needed in order to experience what is actually here, which is prior to concepts. Nothing need be known about 'the actual' in order to perceive it, though if it is being perceived, knowledge about it cannot obscure it.
|
|
|
Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 13:19:16 GMT -5
All seemed a world in flower, and I was the soul of this world...
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 13:34:06 GMT -5
"I mean don't you have to have a 'concept' of stuff shining forth to recognize stuff shinning forth?" I'm not sure I understand that, but it's interesting. In order to store an experience, or to talk about it, concepts are needed, but no concepts are needed in order to experience what is actually here, which is prior to concepts. Nothing need be known about 'the actual' in order to perceive it, though if it is being perceived, knowledge about it cannot obscure it. Yes, what we experience through the perceiving of the body "Is" the non conceptual world... The robin your eyes see and your ears hear "is" the non conceptual robin, hehehe, but the mind carves out a seeming 'separate' reality as the conceptual world. The awareness of that non conceptual robin, must therefore be non conceptual in nature... PS: And that's why we can never conceptualize or 'know' the truth that we are...
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2011 13:41:22 GMT -5
Yes.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 13:51:44 GMT -5
Once the mind gets hold of E.'s robin, it kills the truth and calls it "a robin." After one has passed through the gateless gate, what the robin was before it was a robin shines forth. Or, as Jesus put it, "Before Abraham was, I am." I was just wondering ZD, since you've passed through the 'gateless gate'. What 'does' the non conceptual awareness see when it looks at the non conceptual "robin" shining forth? I mean don't you have to have a 'concept' of stuff shining forth to recognize stuff shinning forth? TRF: E. answered this in a following post, but I'll add a few words. What we see when we look at the world non-conceptually cannot be put into words because it is prior to words or concepts. It simply is what it is. At the moment I'm looking out a window of a new home under construction at what could be described as "a wooded hillside with massive outcroppings of weathered limestone boulders," but what I actually see is the reality that those words describe. If someone standing beside me said, You're looking at a wooded hillside with massive outcroppings of weathered limestone boulders," I would reply (if I were in a teaching mode), "No, that is NOT what I see. I see what can be described that way before it is imagined as something composed of other things and symbolized by those words." No, you do not have to have a concept of anything in order to see "what is." What I see is a field of being without any boundaries. This does not prevent me from conceptualizing what I see and describing it in various ways, but no description or idea can remotely capture the truth of it. I used the words "shining forth" to point to the difference between what the robin IS, before name or concept, and the idea/image/word "robin." Your question about this is excellent because it indicates a willingness to consider that an absolute reality might be present that can be perceived prior to making any conceptual distinctions. The invitation is to investigate that possibility.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 13:54:19 GMT -5
"I mean don't you have to have a 'concept' of stuff shining forth to recognize stuff shinning forth?" I'm not sure I understand that, but it's interesting. In order to store an experience, or to talk about it, concepts are needed, but no concepts are needed in order to experience what is actually here, which is prior to concepts. Nothing need be known about 'the actual' in order to perceive it, though if it is being perceived, knowledge about it cannot obscure it. Yes, what we experience through the perceiving of the body "Is" the non conceptual world... The robin your eyes see and your ears hear "is" the non conceptual robin, hehehe, but the mind carves out a seeming 'separate' reality as the conceptual world. The awareness of that non conceptual robin, must therefore be non conceptual in nature... PS: And that's why we can never conceptualize or 'know' the truth that we are... Yes.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 15:33:51 GMT -5
If we agree that we actually are, or rather the body 'is' seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting and sensing the non conceptual world... And that the mind creates a separate conceptualized reality about it. Then one simply has to look at that, which puts boarders around that which cannot have boarders... When we were small children, we lived in the non conceptual world and so life was filled with unlimited possibilities. Bit by bit everyone helped to initiate us into a separate reality called the 'world'. To me, isn't the way home a matter of simply reverse engineering that initiation, a sort of a cult like deprogramming, from the conceptual 'description' of the world, to the non conceptual world of truth? After all, isn't that non conceptual truth here right now, in this moment, being experienced by the body?... Meanwhile the minds busy doing it's own thang, upholding the description of the world, with help from the internal dialogue. ATA is fine, but maybe what's needed is a little 'body awareness'... After all, it doesn't 'know' what it's looking at, or what it's hearing or what it's sensing... And it seems to me, that it's perfectly happy with all that not knowing..
|
|
|
Post by heretic on Jun 11, 2011 15:38:30 GMT -5
TRF says- "ATA is fine, but maybe what's needed is a little 'body awareness'... After all, it doesn't 'know' what it's looking at, or what it's hearing or what it's sensing... And it seems to me, that it's perfectly happy with all that not knowing.." My body is smiling upon reading this, through the ears it sees with.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 11, 2011 15:49:50 GMT -5
TRF: I think we're talking about exactly the same thing. What I'm calling ATA is the body's direct sensory perception. When the body is looking at the world non-conceptually, it doesn't know (intellectually) what its looking at, and it is quite happy with that kind of not-knowing.
And yes, ATA is actually reversing the process that led to mind's dominance. I think the Tao Te Ching has a verse that goes something like this:
The average man accumulates knowledge about the world bit by bit, While a student of Tao removes knowledge of the world bit by bit Until finally he attains the essence of Tao and moves in accordance with it.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jun 11, 2011 15:50:20 GMT -5
TRF says- "ATA is fine, but maybe what's needed is a little 'body awareness'... After all, it doesn't 'know' what it's looking at, or what it's hearing or what it's sensing... And it seems to me, that it's perfectly happy with all that not knowing.." My body is smiling upon reading this, through the ears it sees with. Yes...
|
|