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Post by onehandclapping on Jun 6, 2011 19:39:00 GMT -5
Last night I realized just how sneaky my ego could be. I'll tell the story and then hopefully someone can give me other common back doors that it likes to sneak in.
So the other night my wife and I were having a conversation about a city she goes to visit for her work and how she dislikes the city and would never like to live there. I ask her if there are any thoughts she can find that lead her to think this way and she says "no, it's not a thought, it just a feeling". Instead of letting it just be, I take it upon myself to try to point out the thoughts that might have lead her down the road of having a bad time in this town. A long discussion ensues.
Fast forward to the last night when her parents swing by for a NBA Finals party that we threw at our house. We tell the story to my father in-law, who by all definitions is an enlightened being who stands on the river bank most of the time. He agrees with me about it being thoughts that are causing her to not like the place, but then he makes a comment that struck me as odd at the time. He said "I've been where you are with this." At first I just blew it off but my mind had begun to chew away. Was there something I wasn't seeing?? Had my mind somehow covered up reality without me knowing??
After the game a friend of mine joined my wife and me at a local restaurant for a late night dinner. We talked about a various number of topics which included me pointing at it to them and trying to explain why I thought the dot on the blank sheet of paper was such a clear pointer. After we left and were driving home I told my wife "I think he is close to breaking open." She laughed and responded "Really?? I don't see that at all. He doesn't seem to be seeking at all."
POW!!!! The one ended stick whacked me in the face......again.
I realized that it was in fact my ego projecting on my friend that he was a seeker and wanted to "gain" this insight that "I" had to offer. Then my father in-laws statement also came into view. Which maybe it wasn't what he meant when he said it, but I realized that it was my ego projecting on my wife. That sneaky ego had once again found it's way back in front of reality. Instead of seeing and accepting what is, I.E. my friends and family exactly how they are at that moment, it was projecting people around me that needed to change and find IT cause they would be happier and not suffer anymore. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky!
Upon this realization of being under the influence again, I had numerous thoughts about what else is my father in-law sees in me that I don't see?? I wanted to call him right then. But then I realized that once again I was lost in thoughts about something which had nothing to do with the moment of now. He did the thing I need to do with my friends and family, just let them be. He stood there and saw my ego covering me up and let IT play the game for just the right length that IT was supposed to play.
So I guess my wish in this thread is to hear you guys' stories about how the sneaky ego back-door-ed you and managed to create a false you again without awareness seeing it.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 7, 2011 19:58:31 GMT -5
Nice story, lol... I think you got it backwards though. You weren't the one being back door'd, you were the one back dooring the ego. Our world is 99% conceptual and a reflection of our own mind. We are never standing by the river. ;D It's only when we focus on the now moment, and hold it, that perception of the conceptual world, or the ego, falls away. Only when we can store enough energy, to pit the non conceptual world against the conceptual world does it automatically happen. All our available energy goes into sustaining the conceptual world, the memory of the past, and the projecting of ourselves into the future. In my opinion it's all about that, stealing energy back from the conceptual world and using it to see the non conceptual world... ...and once again finding ourselves standing by the river.  |
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2011 20:34:56 GMT -5
That's cool n' all, though standing by the river is effortless and requires no energy at all.
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Post by mamza on Jun 7, 2011 21:30:39 GMT -5
You lost me at energy.
But I'm always trying to teach people that don't want to be taught. They just talk to me about these problems they have, and I'm able to see where the issues are possibly coming from so I try to help. Most don't really need help though... they just like to be able to bitch up a conversation with someone willing to listen (no offense intended....just bitch as in whine).
It also sneaks up whenever I 'decide' to quiet my mind. And by that I mean moments that aren't necessarily completely spontaneous (not that any moment isn't, but you know what I mean). I think, "Hey! I'm gonna shut my mind up for a bit" and try to do it.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 7, 2011 22:05:26 GMT -5
That's cool n' all, though standing by the river is effortless and requires no energy at all. What's effortless, is looking at the conceptual river of your own mind. They're familiar scenes and you feel at ease looking at them. What takes effort and personal power, is looking at the same river and having no idea what your looking at... If your standing by the river and seeing water and the banks... you're not seeing the non conceptual river... ...just your own mind. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2011 22:31:59 GMT -5
I dunno nuthin bout no non-conceptual river. I've been using the river bank analogy to refer to the observer/witness position. Yes, what is witnessed is the movement of your mind.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 7:10:19 GMT -5
That's cool n' all, though standing by the river is effortless and requires no energy at all. What's effortless, is looking at the conceptual river of your own mind. They're familiar scenes and you feel at ease looking at them. What takes effort and personal power, is looking at the same river and having no idea what your looking at... If your standing by the river and seeing water and the banks... you're not seeing the non conceptual river... ...just your own mind. This is what all addicts say. "What I'm doing is easier to do than quitting." The funny thing is, from a deeper perspective, whatever one is doing is always effortless because there is no one doing it (the individual is the illusion). Taking the drug or refusing the drug are both being done by the same one. Ironically, most drugs are pretty harmless compared to the habit of staying attached to brain TV (staying lost in the mind). From this perspective almost the whole world is drugged. As Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel of Thomas, "I took my place in the midst of the world......I found them all intoxicated." |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 8:35:05 GMT -5
As for the tricky ego, Chogyam Trumpa Rinpoche many years ago wrote a delightful little book about this subject titled "Spiritual Materialism" detailing all the tricky ways that ego tries to hide from itself while pursuing spirituality. The hiding becomes more and more subtle as one "progresses." The person who gives up the material world in search of truth frequently becomes spiritually materialistic and thinks he/she has attained something superior. This is the "holier than thou" syndrome exhibited by many true believers. Alan Watts used to make fun of missionary behavior that he summarized as COS (cringe or starve), in which "the heathen" had to act correctly in order to be rewarded by the spiritually superior missionaries. Behind all missionary work lies the unspoken words, "I own the truth, and I am here to save you." The sage, by contrast, doesn't try to save anyone; she simply offers assistance to those who seek it. Tibetan Buddhism is one of the few religions where it is considered a sin to speak about Buddhism to people who have no interest in it.
How is the sneaky ego defeated? It isn't. It simply dies on the vine as attention is re-directed to the actual. If selfhood isn't fed by constant attention, it eventually starves. Like the mountain climber who gets into the zone by focusing 100% on each movement, the sage stays in the zone by focusing 100% upon "what is." After the mountain climber finishes the climb, reflection upon selfhood resumes. The sage, by contrast, never stops focusing upon "what is."
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Post by therealfake on Jun 8, 2011 10:16:07 GMT -5
I dunno nuthin bout no non-conceptual river. I've been using the river bank analogy to refer to the observer/witness position. Yes, what is witnessed is the movement of your mind. Yes, since you were using it, I thought it would be easier to understand the 'gateless gate' when ZD mentioned this: "Seeing the world totally free of all concepts is what Zen calls "passing through the gateless gate." It is considered the third step on the path of non-duality. To see the world free of concepts, simply contemplate in silence what the eyes see. Do not jump to any conclusions. Be still, and look. Look without knowing. Look at the world like a little child. The truth has nothing to do with concepts. One glimpse is all it takes, and great laughter will ensue." What we are, can observe the conceptual world (mind) or the non-conceptual world (spirit). Most peeps can get to the 'gateless gate' being the observer of the 'world of the mind', without much trouble. And that is effortless, why wouldn't it be, your looking at your own mind... But the 'gateless gate' is not a metaphor for another concept, it reveals a world that is as pragmatic and all encompassing as the world of the mind. It's fine to stop here and rest on ones accomplishments, but the journey for the totality of what we are, isn't even close to being over. Maybe there are some peeps in this forum who have had the intestinal fortitude to explore that world, but I'm pretty sure if they did, they wouldn't be in this forum... |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 10:39:19 GMT -5
"Most peeps can get to the 'gateless gate' being the observer of the 'world of the mind', without much trouble."
An astonishing statement if ever there was one.
I'm wondering how much stuff you're going to pack for "the journey toward the totality of what we are?" LOL.
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Post by therealfake on Jun 8, 2011 11:35:57 GMT -5
"Most peeps can get to the 'gateless gate' being the observer of the 'world of the mind', without much trouble." An astonishing statement if ever there was one. I'm wondering how much stuff you're going to pack for "the journey toward the totality of what we are?" LOL. Why is it astonishing? Your experiencing the conceptual world right now...lol But that is not who/what you are... You point to the 'gateless gate' but you don't know what that means. It is not a 'literal' journey, I mean the act of exploring the non-conceptual world. The world that is here now, and from which the mind has carved out a safe little niche for it's own survival... lol You point to something that is beyond the conceptual world, that realizes something, yet you won't go through the gate and look for it...(not really going through a gate) That's what's astonishing, well not really... ;D |
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Post by enigma on Jun 8, 2011 11:47:10 GMT -5
"Most peeps can get to the 'gateless gate' being the observer of the 'world of the mind', without much trouble." An astonishing statement if ever there was one. I'm wondering how much stuff you're going to pack for "the journey toward the totality of what we are?" LOL. Probly a good idea to take lots of water, since those pools are just mirages.  TRF: I was hoping Zen's response would help me figure out what you're saying, but not really, so much. All I can do it try to clarify. The bank/river analogy is a metaphor for being conscious. Observing the thoughts and feelings rather than being swept away by them unconsciously. As I see it, this observer position is a pre-requisite for Zen's ATA. From this observer position, you may still be attending to thoughts, and so there is likely some involvement with them. What is sometimes called the pure witnessing is a passive witness to whatever arises, without any involvement, and this is possible from your position on the bank. To be the passive witnessing is to attend to the actual. The gateless gate, in my interpretation, is self realization. From one side it appears to be a goal to be reached, hence the gate. From the other side it is seen that there is no gate and one hasn't moved at all. "I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." Rumi |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 8, 2011 12:30:32 GMT -5
In Zen, "passing through the gateless gate" usually refers to one's first penetration, a kensho, into the world of oneness. It breaks the unconscious attachment to the conception of form and void. For the first time one realizes the concrete difference between ideas ABOUT reality and reality itself. In my own case, I can remember the exact moment, and my astonishment, when I first saw the difference between my idea of trees and what trees ARE. I never again thought of trees in the same way as before.
PTTGG is both a penetration into oneness, and a confirmatory experience, but it rarely frees one from selfhood (because selfhood seems to be the deepest attachment peeps have). This body/mind appeared in 1943. It started attending the actual in 1983. It passed through the GG in 1984. The end of the spiritual search and freedom did not occur until 1999. Only afterwards was it obvious that no one ever made any kind of effort, nor moved an inch in any direction. Nevertheless, today I still suggest persistence in ATA. I'll leave that paradox as a koan for those who like to contemplate koans. LOL
Zen people distinguish between kensho (seeing into one's true nature--oneness), which may happen numerous times, and satori (freedom, the end of the spiritual search, and the end of any attempt to control the mind).
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Post by therealfake on Jun 8, 2011 12:33:56 GMT -5
"Most peeps can get to the 'gateless gate' being the observer of the 'world of the mind', without much trouble." An astonishing statement if ever there was one. I'm wondering how much stuff you're going to pack for "the journey toward the totality of what we are?" LOL. Probly a good idea to take lots of water, since those pools are just mirages. TRF: I was hoping Zen's response would help me figure out what you're saying, but not really, so much. All I can do it try to clarify. The bank/river analogy is a metaphor for being conscious. Observing the thoughts and feelings rather than being swept away by them unconsciously. As I see it, this observer position is a pre-requisite for Zen's ATA. From this observer position, you may still be attending to thoughts, and so there is likely some involvement with them. What is sometimes called the pure witnessing is a passive witness to whatever arises, without any involvement, and this is possible from your position on the bank. To be the passive witnessing is to attend to the actual. The gateless gate, in my interpretation, is self realization. From one side it appears to be a goal to be reached, hence the gate. From the other side it is seen that there is no gate and one hasn't moved at all. "I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside." Rumi Yes, we are talking about 2 worlds here, that are actually the same world... But the non-conceptual world is not a self realization. Just like what/who we are observes the conceptual world of the mind, it can observe the non-conceptual world of the spirit. But that non-conceptual world is not who/what we are...because it arises in the "Is" ness of who/what we are. What I am pointing to, is the observable world of the 'spirit'. And it is as 'practical' as our conceptual world. ;D " Even if your eloquence flows like a river, it is of no avail.
Though you can expound the whole of Buddhist literature, it is of no use.
If you solve this problem, you will give life to the way that has been dead until this moment and destroy the way that has been alive up to now.
Otherwise you must wait for Maitreya Buddha and ask him." By late Zen master Katsuki Sekida |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 12:54:54 GMT -5
In Zen, "passing through the gateless gate" usually refers to one's first penetration, a kensho, into the world of oneness. It breaks the unconscious attachment to the conception of form and void. For the first time one realizes the concrete difference between ideas ABOUT reality and reality itself. In my own case, I can remember the exact moment, and my astonishment, when I first saw the difference between my idea of trees and what trees ARE. I never again thought of trees in the same way as before. PTTGG is both a penetration into oneness, and a confirmatory experience, but it rarely frees one from selfhood (because selfhood seems to be the deepest attachment peeps have). This body/mind appeared in 1943. It started attending the actual in 1983. It passed through the GG in 1984. The end of the spiritual search and freedom did not occur until 1999. Only afterwards was it obvious that no one ever made any kind of effort, nor moved an inch in any direction. Nevertheless, today I still suggest persistence in ATA. I'll leave that paradox as a koan for those who like to contemplate koans. LOL Zen people distinguish between kensho (seeing into one's true nature--oneness), which may happen numerous times, and satori (freedom, the end of the spiritual search, and the end of any attempt to control the mind). one of the things i've been noticing over the last couple weeks is a lot less energy being put into ATA -- at least what I think is ATA. for a while now ATA had seemed to just roar into full consciousness. a sort of effortless noticing going on. pow! for lack of better descriptors, it had a similar flavor as being self-conscious. there was a hyper-consciousness about it. and one thing that it put in bas-relief was that there were several states of consciousness: 1. everyday, hohum -- the same sort of state i have when playing with kids, talking to folks doing pretty much 90% of everything 2. daydreaming 3. ATA -- purposeful but effortless, very aware of being aware, tuning into mostly sensations of the moment. recently i realized that #1 is it, "the natural state," and with that the spontaneous ATA stuff has faded. that #1 includes everything, actually, the full 100%. so now i'm wondering if the ATA sort of set up a false duality which ultimately pointed to the lack thereof? the other possibility here is that I'm just fading into mindless botdom. or perhaps it's too late. beep. |
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