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Post by ivory on May 14, 2011 15:11:59 GMT -5
ZD, I know that we're not supposed to monitor our progress or think about how long it takes, but 15 years seems like one hell of a long time. Was there a time where you gave up, or wanted to give up?
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Post by zendancer on May 14, 2011 15:21:59 GMT -5
There is one other point that I should have included in my prior post. When I give people advice and tell them that persistence in pursuing that advice is important, they think that I am talking to who they think they are, a Betty or a Bill. I am not. I am never talking to a Betty or a Bill. I am always talking to myself--to "what is." The truth can do whatever it wants to do, and whatever it decides to do is a mystery. Betty or Bill can do nothing to wake up, but who Betty and Bill REALLY IS can do whatever it wants to do. Remember, no Betty or Bill has ever posted anything on this forum. There is only one poster here!
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Post by zendancer on May 14, 2011 15:38:31 GMT -5
ZD, I know that we're not supposed to monitor our progress or think about how long it takes, but 15 years seems like one hell of a long time. Was there a time where you gave up, or wanted to give up? Ivory: This body/mind was a slow learner. LOL. It also didn't have the advantage of the advice on this forum, and it had some deeply ingrained thinking habits. Hopefully, other people can wake up much faster. No, there was never a time when I considered giving up or wanted to give up. Each time a strategy failed, I doubled down and became more determined than ever. I finally reached a point where I thought, "I don;t care if it takes 15 million years, I'm going to stay present until presence is all there is." This is why I often emphasize the importance of persistence. There is a great story from Korean Buddism about a monk who was not overly bright. His Zen Master told him to repeat a famous mantra about the Buddha. The monk misunderstood the words of the mantra, and thought the mantra was "Buddha is two grass shoes." He didn't understand what that meant, but he had a simple-minded persistence and he repeated that mantra endlessly until his mind became one-pointed. I can't remember exactly what happened, but suddenly one day he had a huge enlightenment and even understood the meaning of his completely erroneous mantra. To wake up, it helps to have an attitude of "I don;t care how long this takes, I'll do whatever has to be done until there is total freedom." After this body/mind reached that level of determination, the search ended less than a year later.
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2011 16:09:36 GMT -5
Good stuff, Zen. Thanks.
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2011 16:26:55 GMT -5
"To wake up, it helps to have an attitude of "I don;t care how long this takes, I'll do whatever has to be done until there is total freedom." After this body/mind reached that level of determination, the search ended less than a year later."
Funny you should mention this. I just posted about this on a forum where the theme is 'There's no me to no-do no-nuthin', so I got my mojo on:
-----This is likely going to sound seriously spiritually incorrect, especially on this forum where we're trying very hard to disappear, so I appologize ahead of time for whatever shows up here.
The difference between trying and not trying will probably be that trying, desperately and passionately, to wake up, may result in waking up, while not trying, especially at this point in your apparent evolution, will likely result in a rather unfulfilling life. You should never have started, but you did, so finish it. In one of Jed's books he said something to the effect that seeking enlightenment is a stupid thing to do and you should avoid it if you can. However, if your head is in the tiger's mouth, it's time for you to bite down hard. Going around the rest of your life with your feet dangling out of the tigers mouth is the only thing worse than being a zombie. 'There's no me no-here that can no-do no-nothing'. God, what a horrible way to live!
What you are is not a person, and so all this personal nonsense about how you don't exist and what you can't do and how powerless you are can become a huge distraction at some point. What you are is the intelligence within which your entire experience is formed moment to moment through the spontaneous (pre-thought) movement of your attention, which is Awareness itself, and if that attention is devoted to seeing yourself as a no-me then that's the experience that's going to happen there until the body drops. Being entranced by 'no-me thoughts' is not better than being entranced by 'me thoughts'. I wrote a poem once that ends "What sorcery is this that clips the wings of angels and makes fools of Gods?"
So what can be done? Well, it's your attention that gets pulled into the thought stream, isn't it? It's your interest in drama and being right that creates drama and righteousness. It's your interest in the spiritual circus that keeps the game going. It's your interest in the idea that something is missing that forms the all too real experience of something missing. It's your unwillingness to notice that all of it is showing up in front of you because you care about it, that keeps it showing up. What are you that notices all this stuff going on and does any of it really have anything to do with you or are you just imagining that it does?
Becomming an adult is about standing on the bank of the river watching instead of falling into the thought stream and getting smashed against the rocks. Is it so hard to not get pulled inside your thoughts? It happens because you are interested in them, and pretending to not be interested isn't working. Are you also interested in being conscious rather than unconscious? If so, then drag yourself out of the river and sit still and watch. Don't do or not-do anything, just sit still and notice everything.---
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Post by Portto on May 14, 2011 16:57:53 GMT -5
I think most logically conclude 'they' can get to some even better place (more stuff).
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2011 18:07:53 GMT -5
I think most logically conclude 'they' can get to some even better place (more stuff). Or that it can be their ongoing personal experience of enlightenment.
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Post by Portto on May 14, 2011 19:01:26 GMT -5
Is selfhood lost, or seen to be a misunderstanding?
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Post by Portto on May 14, 2011 19:01:48 GMT -5
I think most logically conclude 'they' can get to some even better place (more stuff). Or that it can be their ongoing personal experience of enlightenment. Oh yes!
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2011 1:15:30 GMT -5
Was just watching a Mooji video and he talks about what we've been discussing; staying on the bank instead of falling in the river. He doesn't use the analogy but talks about staying with the self instead of 'going out'. It's a 30 min video but he talks about this in the first few minutes. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4srBNYAkLo0
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Post by ivory on May 15, 2011 1:21:05 GMT -5
Thanks ZD and Enigma.
>> To wake up, it helps to have an attitude of "I don;t care how long this takes, I'll do whatever has to be done until there is total freedom." After this body/mind reached that level of determination, the search ended less than a year later.
This is an encouragement for sure.
>> Going around the rest of your life with your feet dangling out of the tigers mouth is the only thing worse than being a zombie. 'There's no me no-here that can no-do no-nothing'. God, what a horrible way to live!
I certainly don't want to be in this state the rest of my life. It's very lonely. While there are times that I find the whole thing very fascinating, there are times where I just want this shit to be over.
>> What you are is not a person, and so all this personal nonsense about how you don't exist and what you can't do and how powerless you are can become a huge distraction at some point.
I can relate to this. I was definitely stuck there for a while. But I did become aware of it, and I seemed to have snapped out of it.
>> So what can be done? Well, it's your attention that gets pulled into the thought stream, isn't it? It's your interest in drama and being right that creates drama and righteousness. It's your interest in the spiritual circus that keeps the game going. It's your interest in the idea that something is missing that forms the all too real experience of something missing. It's your unwillingness to notice that all of it is showing up in front of you because you care about it, that keeps it showing up. What are you that notices all this stuff going on and does any of it really have anything to do with you or are you just imagining that it does?
This is very interesting. I'll look at this some more.
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Post by smokey on May 15, 2011 15:04:45 GMT -5
. This post will largely be ignored by all the rugged individualists, but here goes.
From Lord Merog, or as His Buddhist lovers call Him, "Merwan Rinpoche":And:There is a snag involved in seeing the Truth before one realizes the Truth. The seer sees that there is no separate "I" -- no separate center of awareness. The mental conclusion derived from this perception is that, since there is no separate self, realization must be actualized within himself. There can be no outside forces to help.
However, the pilgrim has only seen the Truth -- that is, he has not realized it permanently. The tendency then is to try to recapture the perception using mental or physical exercises. This action proceeds from the pilgrim's ignorance about what realization of the Truth is.Permanent realization of the Truth can only occur when the mental impressions picked up from millions of lifetimes fade enough to be plucked away by a Spiritual Master who has already realized the Truth. This can happen without the physical presence of the Master, as with Sai Baba of Shirdi, or in His physical presence, as with Upasni Maharaj.Mental or physical spiritual exercises can aid in the dissolution of mental impressions, however, the acts themselves become new mental impressions which must also fade away before permanent realization can occur.
This is why many pilgrims get caught in various byways while traversing the inner spiritual planes. Without a real Master's help, they can be stuck for a very long time.So, although one can gain much relief from various yogic and mental techniques, the secret is not to take them seriously by understanding their limitations. And always remember this....
You can't STAY HERE....Without a little help from a Friend..
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Post by souley on May 15, 2011 15:26:36 GMT -5
Is just looking-noticing a mental/physical exercise? (Honest question)
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2011 17:49:55 GMT -5
Yeah, that makes the same point we've been discussing here, though I would use the word 'experience' in place of 'seeing', since it actually is an experience of a mind state, which is why it comes and goes. (I guess I equate seeing with realizing)
Though the idea that a master is required doesn't seem to be the case....so much....really. I'm not suggesting the person does that, and we could say that's God's job, but the physical form of the master isn't causing it either. however, there's much to be said for devotion, whatever form that takes.
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2011 17:52:36 GMT -5
Is just looking-noticing a mental/physical exercise? (Honest question) Not really. Since it's ultimately effortless, it's not a doing and it amounts to getting out of the way, though that might require some effort. Hehe.
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