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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 12:49:02 GMT -5
There is a way out of this, which is what non-duality is all about, but it must be clear that it is not about finding permanent dualistic happiness, and this pursuit has to come to an end. There is an enormous amount of energy and momentum invested in this search, and this is the single greatest obstacle to Freedom. This makes sense for a crusty old buddhism-laden mind like mine. From my perspective right now the 'searching' that is happening, which is VORACIOUS, is so big it's sort of easy to sit back and watch. Like waterskiing behind a speedboat. i suppose i could let go of the rope...but not sure how to do that. my grip seems to be fused to the rope which is fused to the boat. okay? the search for happiness, or relief of suffering, or clarity from confusion, or getting some place other than here, seems to be what is going on -- the motor. it all seems a bit like trying to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps. an exercise in extreme futility. the way out you mention, which is partly understanding what the way out is not -- finding happiness -- is easy to understand but hard, impossible to do? the search is so futile and consuming that it would make sense to give up. afterall i can't see it helping my dualistic life much right now. the search itself seems to be creating some of that dualistic unhappiness. E.G. spending time right now typing on this forum instead of tackling a domestic to do list that would make spouse at least temporarily happy; or tackling work to do list that would demonstrate more efficient productivity, and theoretically provide more job security...blah blah. yanked along for the ride. but fascinating too.
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 12:52:21 GMT -5
"The striving for happiness is the desire to know Everything." How do you figure? According to these ancient teachings, the desire for happiness is the striving to experience enough to know Everything, which is the one Self. Self = Everything Realizing the Self must be accomplished through experience of opposites rather than thought. The mind can believe it knows what it does not know.... And no one can tell it otherwise. . I would say experience exhausts the interest in experiencing, which turns the attention toward progressively more transcendent experiences, and ultimately beyond experiences themselves to the realization of that which is experiencing. This does not imply that the striving for happiness is the desire to know everything. It's a little more like the desire to experience everything, and of course knowledge can be part of that experience. There's some truth to the saying 'Ignorance is bliss'. Not everybody wants to know stuff, they just want to feel happy, and this doesn't require knowledge. I suspect these "ancient teachings" are actually trying to convey the same thing, though "know" probly doesn't refer to knowledge, and "Everything" may not even refer to dualistic experience.
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 13:08:21 GMT -5
There is a way out of this, which is what non-duality is all about, but it must be clear that it is not about finding permanent dualistic happiness, and this pursuit has to come to an end. There is an enormous amount of energy and momentum invested in this search, and this is the single greatest obstacle to Freedom. This makes sense for a crusty old buddhism-laden mind like mine. From my perspective right now the 'searching' that is happening, which is VORACIOUS, is so big it's sort of easy to sit back and watch. Like waterskiing behind a speedboat. i suppose i could let go of the rope...but not sure how to do that. my grip seems to be fused to the rope which is fused to the boat. okay? the search for happiness, or relief of suffering, or clarity from confusion, or getting some place other than here, seems to be what is going on -- the motor. it all seems a bit like trying to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps. an exercise in extreme futility. The searches you mention are different, and I don't see them all as futile. While dualistic happiness, and being somewhere other than here, are impossible, clarity from confusion and freedom from suffering are absolutely possible. Do you mean that realizing the futility of finding happiness is impossible? No, it's not impossible. It's not even hard. The problem is that, when this is the goal, there's zero interest in noticing it can't be reached. (I don't mean to suggest that there are more steps after ending the search for happiness. This search is the cause of suffering.)
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Post by therealfake on May 1, 2011 13:09:53 GMT -5
The search can't be given up by deciding to give up, which is why genuine insight into the futility of the search is often necessary. (Which is why I rambled about it) Nobody searches for something that they are absolutely certain cannot be found. The search is not necessarily an empty endeavor, unless of course, the focus is on the end and not the means. The journey itself can be a wonderful expression of your true nature, as it is anyway. Not everyone who searches for their true self (which is happiness ) is going to find it, so the rewards are found through ones activity on the path and not by reaching the goal. The true meaning of the search lies in the effort. It's a matter of finding that 'meaning' before we attain something. We should attain happiness, before we attain happiness. It is not after attaining happiness that we find it's true meaning. For example, which is more important, to make a million dollars, or to enjoy your life in your effort, little by little, even though you know it's impossible to make that million dollars; to be successful, or to find some meaning in your 'effort' to be successful? If you don't know the answer to that question, forget about any search, but if you do know the answer, you've found a true insight into life.
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Post by therealfake on May 1, 2011 13:19:25 GMT -5
Heh, I don't know where you get your information from E, but there are thousands of people who have found the secret to a permanent state of happiness, to pure love and to bliss. And while those states have no permanence in the manifested world, they do exist. The reason why teachers are important, is to help peeps discover 'that' which can't be discovered through searching and effort. There are 17 billion faces of Buddha, or God, or Shiva, or the source, or oneness, or enlightenment, or emptiness, on this planet, all of which who's true nature, is the happiness, is the love and the bliss... Teachers open the door to that discovery, but only a person can walk through it. I think everybody (except you) understands I'm talking about dualistic happiness, maybe because I keep referring to dualistic happiness. Of course it's dualistic happiness, its old news, irrelevant, conceptual diarrhea and is not what peeps are looking for in this forum, at least I'm not..
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 13:26:13 GMT -5
The searches you mention are different, and I don't see them all as futile. While dualistic happiness, and being somewhere other than here, are impossible, clarity from confusion and freedom from suffering are absolutely possible. but i thought the whole nondual biz was pointing to the fact that the search leads one away from what is, which is clear right here right now if one isn't confuddled by searching itself? no i was referring to this whole illusion of doership. one can't lift oneself up by one's bootstraps. ...when one no longer has the inkling that one is not already up, does that effort cease...??
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 14:21:53 GMT -5
I think everybody (except you) understands I'm talking about dualistic happiness, maybe because I keep referring to dualistic happiness. Of course it's dualistic happiness, its old news, irrelevant, conceptual diarrhea and is not what peeps are looking for in this forum, at least I'm not.. Almost everyone here is looking for dualistic happiness, including you. You just talked about it in your previous post about finding meaning, enjoying your life, the true self is happiness, it's about the journey, etc. The trouble is the seeker doesn't know what he's looking for, he just wants to be happy. Pretending the search for dualistic happiness has ended and noooow you're on a search for REAL happiness doesn't change anything. Peace is what will fulfill you, but you don't know what that is, so you keep projecting your happiness goal into bigger selves. this is where not knowing comes in handy. Realize you don't even know what you're looking for. If you did, you would already have found it.
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 14:46:23 GMT -5
The searches you mention are different, and I don't see them all as futile. While dualistic happiness, and being somewhere other than here, are impossible, clarity from confusion and freedom from suffering are absolutely possible. but i thought the whole nondual biz was pointing to the fact that the search leads one away from what is, which is clear right here right now if one isn't confuddled by searching itself? The search for something that's already here would be confusion. Realizing that would be clarity. The clarity doesn't take one away from what is, and yet we could say such clarity shows up in the search. The whole idea that one is not the doer, and therefore certain things are impossible for the doer to do, is also confusion. There isn't a nondoer who can't do stuff, see? It's not that there IS a doer, it's that the question doesn't arise. What I see is that infinite potential is always present, which doesn't resonate well with the idea of a doer who can't do stuff, if that makes any sense.
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Post by vacant on May 1, 2011 14:57:07 GMT -5
What I just read was a conceptual description of 'what is' followed by a dismissal of all conceptualization. Hehe. You's guys are pretty funny. What the original post was actually about is the ending of the search for dualistic happiness. Does anybody have an opinion on that, considering the fact that this has always been, and probably always will be, the reason why you do anything? Hihi, nervously giggling, reminds me of those very long gone times at school when teacher was asking a difficult question and I so wanted to give the right answer… me, me sir! This works great for distracting from the frivolities, thank you. I do not find it in my power to either start or stop the search for happiness, dualistic or otherwise. Also I am not able to start or stop my search for Truth, however ridiculous the idea of “searching” for what plainly is. But something else is going on, growing curiosity about the nature and origin of the watching of the dualistic movie, less real importance attached to which half phase the pendulum is in, towards right or towards left. There is very little spring or weight cranking this pendulum (compared to an old fashion clock) so there are few options, say naught, it will come still in the middle, all returns to the source. Not really an opinion, this, but as Ivory, I vote for accept/surrender (abandon wishes to improve/change/attain/bend… what is) and all the while keep watch on where watch comes from —although that too I cannot make happen or stop happening— he throws his arms up in the air in joyful despair.
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Post by therealfake on May 1, 2011 15:17:32 GMT -5
Of course it's dualistic happiness, its old news, irrelevant, conceptual diarrhea and is not what peeps are looking for in this forum, at least I'm not.. Almost everyone here is looking for dualistic happiness, including you. You just talked about it in your previous post about finding meaning, enjoying your life, the true self is happiness, it's about the journey, etc. The trouble is the seeker doesn't know what he's looking for, he just wants to be happy. Pretending the search for dualistic happiness has ended and noooow you're on a search for REAL happiness doesn't change anything. Peace is what will fulfill you, but you don't know what that is, so you keep projecting your happiness goal into bigger selves. this is where not knowing comes in handy. Realize you don't even know what you're looking for. If you did, you would already have found it. Geez Louise E, I thought we were done with all this conceptual dualistic BS. Everyone on this forum knows that there is nothing but a dualistic world, in which God, or enlightenment, or the eternal, is expressing itself. But it is through dualism that we come to appreciate, that which is not dualistic, that which is our true self, the subject discovering itself. Not knowing what our true self is, isn't a tool we need to put in our spiritual pouch, it's a truth that is evident and obvious, we cannot 'know' what we really are. The search for 'whatever' is the dualistic interpretation, of the true self, searching to know itself. There's nothing to give up, nothing to attain, nothing to do, nothing to know, but to 'be', what you already are. It's not even as if you have a choice, lol, it's expressing itself through you right now and every moment of the day. Maybe this forum should start a new discussion group, "Beyond Dualism 101" Then peeps could start to discuss the mechanics of simply 'being' or find the meaning of the term "I AM".
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 15:32:30 GMT -5
What I just read was a conceptual description of 'what is' followed by a dismissal of all conceptualization. Hehe. You's guys are pretty funny. What the original post was actually about is the ending of the search for dualistic happiness. Does anybody have an opinion on that, considering the fact that this has always been, and probably always will be, the reason why you do anything? Hihi, nervously giggling, reminds me of those very long gone times at school when teacher was asking a difficult question and I so wanted to give the right answer… me, me sir! This works great for distracting from the frivolities, thank you. I do not find it in my power to either start or stop the search for happiness, dualistic or otherwise. Also I am not able to start or stop my search for Truth, however ridiculous the idea of “searching” for what plainly is. But something else is going on, growing curiosity about the nature and origin of the watching of the dualistic movie, less real importance attached to which half phase the pendulum is in, towards right or towards left. There is very little spring or weight cranking this pendulum (compared to an old fashion clock) so there are few options, say naught, it will come still in the middle, all returns to the source. Not really an opinion, this, but as Ivory, I vote for accept/surrender (abandon wishes to improve/change/attain/bend… what is) and all the while keep watch on where watch comes from —although that too I cannot make happen or stop happening— he throws his arms up in the air in joyful despair. Thanks. There seems to a pattern forming here, which is interesting. The idea that 'I'm not able to do stuff', while useful at one point, is ultimately a distraction. There isn't somebody who is disempowered in that way. In this case, the search for happiness goes on because it is believed that it may succeed. If it's clear that it can't succeed, there won't be any motivation for it to continue, and it will stop. You don't dig holes in your back yard looking for money because you don't believe it can be found. You don't find that you spontaneously dig for no reason and have no control over that. So it's a matter of clarity rather than personal will, and it's this clarity that the original post addresses. So is this clarity impossible to find? Would that be because there's nobody to find it or because there's nobody interested in looking for it? I suggest the latter, and if what is happening is the pretense of a search without the willingness to find, then the whole search is a sham. (Which it is for everybody, BTW.)
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Post by enigma on May 1, 2011 15:47:14 GMT -5
Almost everyone here is looking for dualistic happiness, including you. You just talked about it in your previous post about finding meaning, enjoying your life, the true self is happiness, it's about the journey, etc. The trouble is the seeker doesn't know what he's looking for, he just wants to be happy. Pretending the search for dualistic happiness has ended and noooow you're on a search for REAL happiness doesn't change anything. Peace is what will fulfill you, but you don't know what that is, so you keep projecting your happiness goal into bigger selves. this is where not knowing comes in handy. Realize you don't even know what you're looking for. If you did, you would already have found it. Geez Louise E, I thought we were done with all this conceptual dualistic BS. Everyone on this forum knows that there is nothing but a dualistic world, in which God, or enlightenment, or the eternal, is expressing itself. But it is through dualism that we come to appreciate, that which is not dualistic, that which is our true self, the subject discovering itself. Not knowing what our true self is, isn't a tool we need to put in our spiritual pouch, it's a truth that is evident and obvious, we cannot 'know' what we really are. The search for 'whatever' is the dualistic interpretation, of the true self, searching to know itself. There's nothing to give up, nothing to attain, nothing to do, nothing to know, but to 'be', what you already are. It's not even as if you have a choice, lol, it's expressing itself through you right now and every moment of the day. Maybe this forum should start a new discussion group, "Beyond Dualism 101" Then peeps could start to discuss the mechanics of simply 'being' or find the meaning of the term "I AM". Actually, it seems like we need to back up a bit and get honest with ourselves. Yes, everybody understands the concepts, and this also gets in the way. If the concepts you talked about were actually realized, nobody would be seeking and everybody would be 'enlightened'. If everybody is already way past such simple stuff, why in the world is the search still going on? If it isn't clear that the search for the IDEA of happiness is still going on, we can step back a bit and look at that. Otherwise, talking about whether or not it's possible to find isn't going to be a very interesting discussion. Some here have acknowledged that the search for happiness is going on, so maybe it's really just you. Hehe.
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Post by vacant on May 1, 2011 16:00:15 GMT -5
Hihi, nervously giggling, reminds me of those very long gone times at school when teacher was asking a difficult question and I so wanted to give the right answer… me, me sir! This works great for distracting from the frivolities, thank you. I do not find it in my power to either start or stop the search for happiness, dualistic or otherwise. Also I am not able to start or stop my search for Truth, however ridiculous the idea of “searching” for what plainly is. But something else is going on, growing curiosity about the nature and origin of the watching of the dualistic movie, less real importance attached to which half phase the pendulum is in, towards right or towards left. There is very little spring or weight cranking this pendulum (compared to an old fashion clock) so there are few options, say naught, it will come still in the middle, all returns to the source. Not really an opinion, this, but as Ivory, I vote for accept/surrender (abandon wishes to improve/change/attain/bend… what is) and all the while keep watch on where watch comes from —although that too I cannot make happen or stop happening— he throws his arms up in the air in joyful despair. Thanks. There seems to a pattern forming here, which is interesting. The idea that 'I'm not able to do stuff', while useful at one point, is ultimately a distraction. There isn't somebody who is disempowered in that way. In this case, the search for happiness goes on because it is believed that it may succeed. If it's clear that it can't succeed, there won't be any motivation for it to continue, and it will stop. You don't dig holes in your back yard looking for money because you don't believe it can be found. You don't find that you spontaneously dig for no reason and have no control over that. So it's a matter of clarity rather than personal will, and it's this clarity that the original post addresses. So is this clarity impossible to find? Would that be because there's nobody to find it or because there's nobody interested in looking for it? I suggest the latter, and if what is happening is the pretense of a search without the willingness to find, then the whole search is a sham. (Which it is for everybody, BTW.) By tomorrow I’ll be away for 10 days and on my packing list I have “some inspirational reading”! In afew words you just gave me what I’ll take along, that’s plenty to chew on. So grateful E, as ever.
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Post by teetown on May 1, 2011 16:04:51 GMT -5
E,
So is the seeking/searching ever fulfilled?
My searching has always been more about truth than happiness. In fact, the search has been carried on at the expense of relative happiness. For example, I left the relative comfort of my christian upbringing because I recognized the untruth of it.
Also, it seems that there is a refining process that happens in the search process. Most people start searching for relative happiness in things, like money, fame, sex. At some point, we get exhausted with that, either because we were unsuccessful in getting those things, or we did get them and we realized we still weren't happy. The question arises "Well, what's really going on here?" Then the search is refined into a search for "Truth." Personally, I looked through religion, then philosophy and then science, and none of those things "out there' had satisfying answers. Then I heard about this non-dual stuff, and the search was refined again to a search within. It feels to me that with each step, I'm a little closer to Truth.
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Post by therealfake on May 1, 2011 16:31:58 GMT -5
Geez Louise E, I thought we were done with all this conceptual dualistic BS. Everyone on this forum knows that there is nothing but a dualistic world, in which God, or enlightenment, or the eternal, is expressing itself. But it is through dualism that we come to appreciate, that which is not dualistic, that which is our true self, the subject discovering itself. Not knowing what our true self is, isn't a tool we need to put in our spiritual pouch, it's a truth that is evident and obvious, we cannot 'know' what we really are. The search for 'whatever' is the dualistic interpretation, of the true self, searching to know itself. There's nothing to give up, nothing to attain, nothing to do, nothing to know, but to 'be', what you already are. It's not even as if you have a choice, lol, it's expressing itself through you right now and every moment of the day. Maybe this forum should start a new discussion group, "Beyond Dualism 101" Then peeps could start to discuss the mechanics of simply 'being' or find the meaning of the term "I AM". Actually, it seems like we need to back up a bit and get honest with ourselves. Yes, everybody understands the concepts, and this also gets in the way. If the concepts you talked about were actually realized, nobody would be seeking and everybody would be 'enlightened'. If everybody is already way past such simple stuff, why in the world is the search still going on? If it isn't clear that the search for the IDEA of happiness is still going on, we can step back a bit and look at that. Otherwise, talking about whether or not it's possible to find isn't going to be a very interesting discussion. Some here have acknowledged that the search for happiness is going on, so maybe it's really just you. Hehe. That may be true, but there have also been folks who have expressed the opposite, that there is nothing new being discussed and no reason to be engaged in conceptual regurgitation... If you would have read my posts, I stated that 'seeking' is already a natural expression of the eternal, God, emptiness or whatever you want to call it. Seeking or not seeking is immaterial. So the conceptualization of the reasons for it, are nothing more than distraction. I'm not talking about the realization of a concept and I never said it would lead to enlightenment, how can you realize what you already are? Stepping back to look at a concept so that you can form a new concept about that concept, is a catch 22 and it's one your mind will happily engage you in until you die. I'm talking about transcending all concepts, we don't have the luxury to believe in even one, no matter how holy. I'm sure you could fill this forum with conceptualizations about the illusory nature of reality, sell books, go on the talk circuit, make videos. That to is an expression of the true self. The fact is, what can you say about something that you cannot 'conceptualize'? Not much. There's obviously more to say about what we are not, then what we are and that's probably why folks loose interest after hearing it a few hundred times. And don't make the mistake of thinking that I believe a word I've said... because that would be foolish.
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