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Post by michaelsees on Apr 3, 2011 21:43:29 GMT -5
The big fear. This conversation brings us to a place most will not want to visit. It's the lost of who we think we are. The suppose individual called Michael or TRF or Mamza whatever. The very idea that these names, beings are nothing more that actors in a dream and that we can loose what we see as ourselves can be very frighting. The fear of death, the great unknown is hard-coded in each of us yet is there a real us as we see it from our perception? It certainly seems so, all the dramas we get caught into are they real or is it just another dream, a dream that has been programed into the very essence of who we are from a very young age. When you are in deep sleep does the world exist, is your car still parked in your drive way. Is there even a world when your in deep sleep? Or is the truth as David Carse so simply said..nobody at home?
For myself my bets are on ..nobody at home which means you who you think you are you are Not and never was..nobody at home.. The idea that nobody at home can die is laughable as nobody can never die. This is not easy at all to come to, the ego/mind will fight till the death(ego death) most can never surrender to this and will continue to search for ways around the truth but the truth will stand on it's own with ..nobody at home..
Michael
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Post by therealfake on Apr 3, 2011 21:53:38 GMT -5
LOL....if there was never a me...who keeps posting as Micheal? Only a reflection of you Michael I could say the say thing, that I'm a reflection of you... There is nothing but you Michael, alone in the universe... There has never been anyone but you. This is just one incredible dream for you... Say hello to yourself...
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2011 23:32:18 GMT -5
There's a perspective from which life, transient and impersonal as it may be, is not viewed as irrelevant and disposable but actually (GASP!) sacred.
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Post by michaelsees on Apr 4, 2011 8:02:27 GMT -5
There's a perspective from which life, transient and impersonal as it may be, is not viewed as irrelevant and disposable but actually (GASP!) sacred. Yes but it's still just a dream your dreaming. For sure you don't go out and shoot yourself when the dream gets bad. Most people wake up by death the end of the dream and a very few die while living. What you call death is only the end of your "waking" dream it's nothing to fear or feel threaten about. Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Apr 4, 2011 8:03:13 GMT -5
Only a reflection of you Michael I could say the say thing, that I'm a reflection of you... There is nothing but you Michael, alone in the universe... There has never been anyone but you. This is just one incredible dream for you... Say hello to yourself... Exactly
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Post by teknix on Apr 5, 2011 9:16:03 GMT -5
What's with the fear of death?
It is inevitable.
Why waste life fearing the invevitable when one could be living with the time that one has?
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2011 9:40:11 GMT -5
The fear of death isn't the hope for physical immortality, it's based on the struggle to delay death as long as possible. It's not inevitable that death must come today.
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Post by teknix on Apr 5, 2011 9:44:40 GMT -5
What are you talking about?
"The fear of death isn't the hope for physical immortality"
I have never heard of anyone dieing from awakening (or attempting to) Kundalini, where's your proof?
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2011 10:34:49 GMT -5
Oh, yes, lots of people have died shortly after awakening, and lots have died from the physical trauma of Kundalini. (I was almost one of them. There was a time when death was an attractive alternative and a few more pain pills would have done the trick.)
However, I wasn't talking about Kundalini or awakening, i was just addressing your logical conclusion that since death is inevitable, there's no reason to fear it. Fear has a motivating force. We fear hungry lions because it makes us move really, really fast to resolve the situation. You don't get all philosophical about it and say, 'Well, the hungry lion is no reason to fear. After all, death is an inevitable consequence of the human condition.'
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Post by zendancer on Apr 5, 2011 11:27:54 GMT -5
Yes, kensho (cosmic consciousness) experiences, as well as kundalini, have been known to cause physical death. Kensho experiences often change the way energy (chi), moves through the body, and some people have had heart attacks following such experiences.
After having a big kensho experience in 1985, I lived in an altered state of mind for two days. As I began to return to "normal" and my previous sense of selfhood started to return, I could feel all kinds of weird stuff happening, and my heart began to do strange things (ultra-fast heartbeats, arrhythmias, pounding heartbeats, etc). I could viscerally feel that the body was under enormous stress as energy circulation was somehow being altered from one pathway to another. I did not think that the body could survive what was happening, and I told my wife that I was going to die of a heart attack that day (even though I was in excellent physical health). I kissed her goodbye that morning never expecting to see her again. I went to work without taking my notebooks with me because I didn't think I would be alive at noon. I drove to a project, and began walking up a long hill. My heart was going crazy, and it felt like there was a sledgehammer inside my chest pounding on my sternum. I did not think I would make it to the top of the hill. There was no fear at all, only total acceptance and a kind of detached curiosity about whether there would be much pain.
As a consequence of the kensho experience and what I had seen during that experience, I no longer had any fear of death whatsoever. When I got to the top of the hill and was still alive, I was extremely surprised. Within the next few minutes my heart calmed down, and I realized that I had somehow survived an extraordinary shift in energy circulation from one pathway to another. Until that day I had never believed in chi, thinking that it was some sort of oriental mumbo jumbo. Ha ha! I discovered that day that I had been quite wrong. There are definitely unique energy pathways in the body, and I assume that kundalini is somehow related to those energy pathways.
As a result of my experiences and also reading many personal accounts of people who have accidentally or purposely activated kundalini (and some of the consequences of that activation), I do not recommend that people mess with energy stuff because it is not necessary for awakening, and because it may open a Pandora's Box that may not be easy to close.
E. has more experience with this sort of thing than I do, so I will leave it to him to elaborate on the issue. I am only curious to know whether his kundalini experiences occurred as a result of some purposeful effort. If it was purposeful, I'd like to know what he did so that I can avoid doing that sort of thing! LOL. The body is operating pretty well right now, and I'd hate to upset the apple cart.
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Post by mamza on Apr 5, 2011 11:39:04 GMT -5
Exactly! Just because we're going to die someday doesn't mean it's a good idea to play Russian Roulette.
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Post by teetown on Apr 5, 2011 12:16:11 GMT -5
I once had a friend tell me something that seems apt to repeat here, something along the lines of "even the yogi looks both ways before crossing the street."
there must certainly be inherent dangers in this path. Losing one's mind is a possibility I think. Steven norquist (half) joked once that mental institutions are probably full of people who've had enlightenment experiences but couldn't integrate it or whatever and it broke their brain. I've accepted that risk. But why take unnecessary risks? The middle path is what buddha advised. This kundalini stuff seems very dangerous.
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2011 13:00:28 GMT -5
"As a result of my experiences and also reading many personal accounts of people who have accidentally or purposely activated kundalini (and some of the consequences of that activation), I do not recommend that people mess with energy stuff because it is not necessary for awakening, and because it may open a Pandora's Box that may not be easy to close."
Absolutely. I also don't recommend it and truth is I don't even like talking about it. Hehe. If somebody is determined to explore it, I suggest being as physically fit as possible. If there are weak areas, like a heart condition or respiratory condition, it may be the last spiritual game you play. And as Zen implies, the snake can't be recoiled. The body adapts to new energy levels or it expires, or struggles through somewhere in between. It's not always a bad thingy, but there's great risk.
"E. has more experience with this sort of thing than I do, so I will leave it to him to elaborate on the issue. I am only curious to know whether his kundalini experiences occurred as a result of some purposeful effort. If it was purposeful, I'd like to know what he did so that I can avoid doing that sort of thing! LOL. The body is operating pretty well right now, and I'd hate to upset the apple cart."
It was not purposeful. However, I was doing a lot of energy work, chakra clearing and the like, and it was part of some energy healing work I used to do, and still do on occasion. The 'clearing of a pathway' caused the Kundalini to spontaneously awaken. The energy deviated into the splenic region that was not cleared and damn near killed me. The doctors, of course, proclaimed that there was no problem, though they couldn't explain the heart palpitations, the profuse sweating and primordial screams. This was about 8 years ago, and I still deal with it on a daily basis. If you're interested in learning how deeply surrender can go, this will teach you.
To be fair, there are probable 'benefits', at least in this context. While I wouldn't say the Kundalini is the cause, a rather all encompassing clarity appeared in the same time frame. Also, I haven't had so much as the sniffles in the 8 years since. To be technically correct, there is a belief here that the energy that sustains the functioning of the body remains at an unusually high level. (Your mileage may vary)
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Post by teetown on Apr 5, 2011 14:59:56 GMT -5
Enigma, was the kundalini stuff you experienced related to your "awakening" or whatever? You said you gained clarity. I'm wondering if you meant mental clarity or something more profound, such as clarity about the way things are.
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Post by enigma on Apr 5, 2011 16:43:52 GMT -5
I mean clarity as in seeing through the illusion. The trouble is we can't apply anything that happens here as the cause of awakening or required for awakening or any of that. What's happening here is entirely an expression. Maybe we can say there was a devotion to Truth here which expressed as Kundalini, energy struggles and such. Practicing Kundalini with the belief that it may cause awakening is probably going to lead to something else, like Siddhis. Truth is a direct goal, directly realized without aid of any props, practices, methods, techniques, etc. It cannot be at the other end of a Kundalini practice or be brought about by any sort of energetic effects in the body.
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