2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 3:05:22 GMT -5
Question ? I think I understand that an 'experience' is in time, has a beginning and end; its duration can be measured..... Can we say that 'realization' comes to stay?.... a profound permanent 'reunderstanding' ?.... That sounds pretty true
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Post by sherry on Mar 7, 2011 4:21:03 GMT -5
Thanks to both of you.
....seems realization requires no interpretation; cannnot be missed or misunderstood....
whereas experience is perceived in time and subject to a multiplicity of interpretations....
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 6:21:06 GMT -5
some experiences though are profound enough to still the mind ie. the mind (in the light of those experiences/realizations) will willingly abdicate its throne and take its rightful place as a servant; whether we call it at those times either an experience or a realization is probably not important (is realizing an experience ?)...the result is the same, a falling away of self as previously defined by an out of order mind...so that then we see/realize the lie...and freedom grows.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 7, 2011 10:23:38 GMT -5
You guys are making this much more difficult than it is. This is really my point here.
It's so simple you missed it. The awakening is very much like this. It's always been there right in front of all of us but because we like to play with words before you you can see what you are seeing ton's of thoughts are let in and you miss it once more.
Ok it's like this in order to know that you have had any kind of realization you have to have the experience of it to occur. This is all you need to know. Don't start to dissect what a experience is or not it just is. Any realization that you might have is always linked with the experience of it. If it were not so then you could never have any realization not could it be spoken of.
This is very very simple now if you never ever have had a single realization of truth then you can say all experiences are just something that happens in the mind and you never put faith in them. However for those that have had at least some dipping into the pool of realization these lucky ones know it for they have experienced it. Get off the idea that you need the mind to experience something it's not at all true. Again going back to what Angela wrote it's like a different organ that operates. As I look at the post above mine here 2pOp ..so then we see/realize the lie..what he is saying is then you experience by seeing and realizing. We are always experiencing in every moment in time it's a flow that does not stop, it can be called realizing if you wish, it does not need to be trapped in time it just is. It's always there but your attention does not see it.
I think some members here are stuck in this idea of drug like or a psychotic break in the mind, or Kundalini or whatever. You need to be simple to see the actual .
Ok off for the day. Thought the snow was gone yesterday we got 4 more inches
Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 7, 2011 10:39:11 GMT -5
Okay, we need to talk. You think Truth is in the not knowing because it changes too fast to keep up with it? ........Serial?? Not Serial , no keeping up with truth, truth just is and is always changing, the absolute is not changeless, who told you it was? You think something that is label absolute means it's changeless? How do you know this? Have you experienced/realized this. You will have more luck nailing Jello to the wall than giving a correct answer here.The truth is you simply don't know. There is something in the human brain/mind that wants to know, that thinks if the actual is finally seen then it must be the absolute truth of what is and never changing this way one can relax around truth knowing in their mind there is such thing as a absolute? Well who says? Who knows? This is only comfort food for your mind. Do I know? Of course not but I do know enough not to put limits on something I am willing to call the absolute. Peace Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 11:33:42 GMT -5
"You guys are making this much more difficult than it is."
Somebody is. Read Sherry's summary again. Very simple.
"You think something that is label absolute means it's changeless?"
Yes, that which you fundamentally are is changeless stillness, and this is actually the reason mind cannot identify it even as an apparent object, though it is actually subjectivity. Identification requires the perception of quality distinguished from other qualities that are not that, and it requires the 'movement' of relative duality. What we refer to as the absolute is formlessness, timelessness stillness and has no relative qualities and is not subject to change.
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ichc
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Post by ichc on Mar 7, 2011 11:57:07 GMT -5
The greatest teachings are your own experiences How can you own an experience, especially after it's gone?
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Post by zendancer on Mar 7, 2011 12:07:40 GMT -5
"You guys are making this much more difficult than it is." Somebody is. Read Sherry's summary again. Very simple. "You think something that is label absolute means it's changeless?" Yes, that which you fundamentally are is changeless stillness, and this is actually the reason mind cannot identify it even as an apparent object, though it is actually subjectivity. Identification requires the perception of quality distinguished from other qualities that are not that, and it requires the 'movement' of relative duality. What we refer to as the absolute is formlessness, timelessness stillness and has no relative qualities and is not subject to change. Totally agree. The most advanced teaching is "Nothing is happening."
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 7, 2011 12:38:53 GMT -5
Well the truth is you can say Nothing is happening, you can say everything is happening, you can say the absolute is changeless or it can be said it's forever changing. All they are is opinions with no weight of personal experience to back it up.
Still so far no one here has really understood my point clearly enough but that's fine.
I would only say in leaving this topic share your experiences they are in truth signposts of your own progress. Teachers that are awaken on different levels will see right away from your experience where you are, others will simply say it's just a experience they come and go.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 13:18:03 GMT -5
Well the truth is you can say Nothing is happening, you can say everything is happening, you can say the absolute is changeless or it can be said it's forever changing. All they are is opinions with no weight of personal experience to back it up. Given that you assign weight to personal experiences, how do you know the personal experiences of others? Your point is that experience trumps concepts. My point is that there is no point where concepts end and experience begins. Time and space and separation are fundamentally concepts, and everyone has the personal experience to 'back up' the 'validity' of these concepts. If teachers are honest with you, they'll tell you if it comes and goes, it's an appearance in Truth and not Truth, and they'll tell you no progress toward what you already are is actually possible, and they'll tell you that believing such things is a trap.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 7, 2011 13:39:20 GMT -5
Given that you assign weight to personal experiences, how do you know the personal experiences of others?. I never claimed I do, however if someone shares with me a experience of being inside and outside their body in the same moment I know what this means. If someone shares with me that they are becoming more loving towards all of life I know what this means. I would then say they are making progress on the path. My point is experience is always happening at no point is it not there. It is only your awareness that is present or not. If you are not being aware you will feel as if nothing is happening at all. If you are aware you will see that you yourself are the experience. This is your own neo-advaita trap. Again the problem with this type of thinking is you try to work from the end first instead of doing the work. It's minds best way of keeping you from awakening. Peace Michael
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 15:49:59 GMT -5
Ahh Michael...you do sound like the local policeman.
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Post by teknix on Mar 7, 2011 15:51:16 GMT -5
The words that you try to make into a concept are not meant to be that, they are a guide or pointer to that which is beyond your own personal individuality. There is nothing to wrack your brain about. Awakening doesn't come from understanding, it comes from actually going there.
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Post by teknix on Mar 7, 2011 15:57:19 GMT -5
When you hear teachings of the old, where it says "and he was enlightened" from a phrase or koan or whatever, That was the final realisation that got him to go beyond. There was tons more stuff to get him to that point.
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 18:21:56 GMT -5
Teknix...words can be so coloured can't they...understanding/experience/realization/going there/being there can at times all mean a similar thing; and so...for the sake of communication we try to 'word' things in ways that help us convey our condition; there are bound to be problems with language as the primary form of communication...perhaps one day we wont need words so much; maybe the vibe/aura/presence of a person will carry the contact/meeting/communication much better than words...i hope so anyway.
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