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Post by michaelsees on Mar 6, 2011 22:48:49 GMT -5
I think trying to intellectualize words that are from far beyond your own experience can be as hazardous as it can be helpful. I want to elaborate more on this matter, and think what you are saying is very important, but I don't have the words to articulate exactly what I want to say right now. Yes and understood Michael
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 6, 2011 22:53:37 GMT -5
I think that it is for this reason that many of the greatest teachings havent been written down and or sworn to secrecy, to prevent people from misinterpreting them and comming to harm. Yes...and also the tug to adopt a second hand life is strong.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 6, 2011 22:53:59 GMT -5
I think that it is for this reason that many of the greatest teachings havent been written down and or sworn to secrecy, to prevent people from misinterpreting them and comming to harm. The greatest teachings are your own experiences and can never be adequately written down for anyone else. Now if you try to they will immediately become what you just said misinterpreted. But this does not mean we cannot share what we have received in order to help others. it's always clear to me when someone is speaking from their own experiences or from some intellect somewhere just so it sounds good. good night Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 23:03:00 GMT -5
I agree that concepts are very limited and can serve only as pointers to Truth. Every notable spiritual teacher has mentioned this and most seekers have got that one down, at least conceptually. Hehe. It's been said so many times it's really not a very interesting topic.
However, the question as to the validity of spiritual experiences is a hot one. I don't trust spiritual experiences. I never trusted my own and I don't trust that of others. How many traditional Christians have had the experience of being saved and born again? How many pseudo-enlightened folks have you met who had an experience of oneness or bliss or divine love or whatever and is ready to teach Self realization? Mind states are a dime a dozen and I can't count the number of folks who had an enlightenment experience, and all I can do is twiddle my thumbs until the experience ends and then try to explain what really happened.
Since mind understands experience and nothing else, sometimes this word is used to describe a realization, which once again shows the limitations of words. I don't care about anybody's spiritual experiences and I don't talk about my own.
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Post by enigma on Mar 6, 2011 23:09:05 GMT -5
"it's always clear to me when someone is speaking from their own experiences or from some intellect somewhere just so it sounds good."
This is the danger of believing in our own mind states. If our mind state agrees with that of another, we call it Truth.
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 6, 2011 23:12:33 GMT -5
Enigma...I have the same sentiment about knowledge and a lot of my 'experiences' too, so what's left ...maybe "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose".
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 6, 2011 23:20:45 GMT -5
I agree that concepts are very limited and can serve only as pointers to Truth. Every notable spiritual teacher has mentioned this and most seekers have got that one down, at least conceptually. Hehe. It's been said so many times it's really not a very interesting topic. However, the question as to the validity of spiritual experiences is a hot one. I don't trust spiritual experiences. I never trusted my own and I don't trust that of others. How many traditional Christians have had the experience of being saved and born again? How many pseudo-enlightened folks have you met who had an experience of oneness or bliss or divine love or whatever and is ready to teach Self realization? Mind states are a dime a dozen and I can't count the number of folks who had an enlightenment experience, and all I can do is twiddle my thumbs until the experience ends and then try to explain what really happened. Since mind understands experience and nothing else, sometimes this word is used to describe a realization, which once again shows the limitations of words. I don't care about anybody's spiritual experiences and I don't talk about my own. I find that to be very sad Enigma. BTW Realization is an experience. When ZD looked around the room and saw that what he was looking for all the time was and has always been there that was a experience/realization. Do not try to not use words to speak the truth. If you do not believe in any of your experiences then you do not believe in any realizations for each realization is a experience in it's own if it was not so then you could not speak it and in that I find absolute sadness with no hope for anyone that stays a skeptic . When you say "If our mind state agrees with that of another, we call it Truth" I say it is Truth, have you wondered at all why you think that in truth it is the "not knowing"? It is like this because Truth itself is not changeless but changes all the time hence you remain not knowing in a way awaiting for the next change that you have no knowing of. Ok now good night all Michael
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Post by mamza on Mar 6, 2011 23:42:58 GMT -5
I think experiences are fun to talk about just because of the ridiculousness of their nature. If my friend walks up to me and starts telling me about this one time at band camp when he suddenly started to see sound and grew 20 feet tall, left his body to populate spirit-beings on Mars, and at the same time played the most incredible piece of music to ever bless the planet I'd say, 'Holy shit!'
The story and the experience are both entirely worthless as far as any of this non-dual business is concerned, but it's good for a laugh and a whoa.
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 0:55:25 GMT -5
Enigma...I have the same sentiment about knowledge and a lot of my 'experiences' too, so what's left ...maybe "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". Well, now that's an expression I've used quite a bit, so I'm down with that. What's left, beyond concepts and experiences, is realization. This is why it's called Self realization and not Self experiencing. What I've been trying to say is realization is not actually an experience. Mind may turn it into some kind of an unspeakable timeless event that occurred on Tuesday at 2:30PM, but this is just what mind does.
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 1:17:18 GMT -5
Yes, it's true I don't actually believe in anything ultimately. But then, realizations don't require belief. They are self evident. Yes, it's true that it cannot be spoken, though I was sure that was YOUR point too.
Okay, we need to talk. You think Truth is in the not knowing because it changes too fast to keep up with it? ........Serial??
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 1:24:54 GMT -5
I think experiences are fun to talk about just because of the ridiculousness of their nature. If my friend walks up to me and starts telling me about this one time at band camp when he suddenly started to see sound and grew 20 feet tall, left his body to populate spirit-beings on Mars, and at the same time played the most incredible piece of music to ever bless the planet I'd say, 'Holy nuts!' The story and the experience are both entirely worthless as far as any of this non-dual business is concerned, but it's good for a laugh and a whoa. That's Funny! ;D I've been a little rougher than usual on spiritual experiences because Michael and I have some history on this matter. I generally have some respect for folk's spiritual experiences. They can be extremely powerful and even transformative in some ways, but they're more often traps that lock one into trying to repeat the experience (which almost always fails) or position one as the knowing experiencer of sumthin so they can go around annoying other seekers with their knowingness.
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 1:58:40 GMT -5
Yes Enigma...i can see it like that except realization speaks to me more than self realization.
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Post by sherry on Mar 7, 2011 2:39:51 GMT -5
Question ?
I think I understand that an 'experience' is in time, has a beginning and end; its duration can be measured.....
Can we say that 'realization' comes to stay?.... a profound permanent 'reunderstanding' ?....
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Post by enigma on Mar 7, 2011 2:55:10 GMT -5
Yes, because it is not dependent upon any conditions of evidence. That which is seen as self evident cannot be doubted and cannot be unseen. There is no support which can subsequently fail. In fact, it will be seen that it has always been seen somehow, because it cannot be missed. Simplicity itself cannot hide behind complexity as such complexity must stand upon it in order to be observed. The foundation of a home is inherently known whether or not it is attended to. It MUST be there, and this is already known. The very structure in which you dwell rests upon it always.
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2p0p
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Post by 2p0p on Mar 7, 2011 3:03:17 GMT -5
Yes, because it is not dependent upon any conditions of evidence. That which is seen as self evident cannot be doubted and cannot be unseen. There is no support which can subsequently fail. Well said
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