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Post by michaelsees on Jan 12, 2011 13:04:02 GMT -5
I can say that the concept of energy/matter comes from the mind and is an illusion, but somehow that doesn't ring true. TRF of course you are correct concepts, energy, matter are all mind stuff/illusions what else could it be? Michael
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 13:06:27 GMT -5
How does the positive thinker know his thoughts are positive? As opposed to what? It does not say anything about a positive thinker here enigma, it just says for one to be inclined, toward positive thoughts or positive thinking, versus, negativity. Well........okay, then. One cannot remain neutral, positive or negative. Take a closer look-see at how relative, dualistic experience works. There is only the continual movement between the polarities. The movement itself is continually defined by both polarities. The only way one knows they are thinking a positive thought is by defining it against the background of a negative thought. Mind can consciously trick itself into believing it is not thinking those negative thoughts by consciously ignoring them, but it's just a mind game, and one in which this suppression will eventually result in a barrage of negativity that cannot be ignored. Yes, it's a mind game that gets progressively more difficult to play until it all collapses and you can move along to the next mind game. Stopping all thoughts is a fun one you might wanna try next.
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Post by popee on Jan 12, 2011 14:37:17 GMT -5
popee, why would questioning the belief in "the formless" mean one believes in form? I'm just curious how you draw this conclusion. Thanks! Great question. I suppose the best answer is: I didn't fully comprehend what he was asking, and just started talking about form. I did not intend to imply enigma believes in form, sloppy writing I suppose.
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Post by popee on Jan 12, 2011 14:54:25 GMT -5
mits wrote: "Well you know if everything is perfect; everything is as it should be but in my instance when I start worrying about how one will pay the rent, the bills that is due at the end of the month and the fact that one is between jobs that state of mind is completly foreign to one. I mean that state of mind just dissappears. However I know what your trying to say though..."
I hear you mits. I too struggle with the paradox of "real life" vs "spiritual life". I know the argument is made that they are one in the same, but it doesn't always feel like that when the electric company is shutting off your power. It's much easier to ponder the big questions from a position of personal comfort. I have often wondered how I would react (spiritually) if my (real) world turned against me. Would I maintain my contentment, my integrity, my empathy? I would hope that I would, but you never can know for sure until your feet are put to the fire.
I hope things go well for you.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 12, 2011 15:02:03 GMT -5
I can say that the concept of energy/matter comes from the mind and is an illusion, but somehow that doesn't ring true. TRF of course you are correct concepts, energy, matter are all mind stuff/illusions what else could it be? Michael The universe was born approximately 14 billion years ago. The earth is only 4.5 billion years old. So who's illusion was it before we came along?
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Post by metapleroma on Jan 12, 2011 16:33:37 GMT -5
It does not say anything about a positive thinker here enigma, it just says for one to be inclined, toward positive thoughts or positive thinking, versus, negativity. Well........okay, then. One cannot remain neutral, positive or negative. Take a closer look-see at how relative, dualistic experience works. There is only the continual movement between the polarities. The movement itself is continually defined by both polarities. The only way one knows they are thinking a positive thought is by defining it against the background of a negative thought. Mind can consciously trick itself into believing it is not thinking those negative thoughts by consciously ignoring them, but it's just a mind game, and one in which this suppression will eventually result in a barrage of negativity that cannot be ignored. Yes, it's a mind game that gets progressively more difficult to play until it all collapses and you can move along to the next mind game. Stopping all thoughts is a fun one you might wanna try next. We will have to agree to disagree. Good luck!
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Post by karen on Jan 12, 2011 17:00:56 GMT -5
popee, why would questioning the belief in "the formless" mean one believes in form? I'm just curious how you draw this conclusion. Thanks! Great question. I suppose the best answer is: I didn't fully comprehend what he was asking, and just started talking about form. I did not intend to imply enigma believes in form, sloppy writing I suppose. Fair enough! You should see my writing - most humorous in a sad sorta way.
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Post by karen on Jan 12, 2011 17:10:58 GMT -5
That's the thing about energy/matter, it's verifiable, where as awareness is not. I can say that the concept of energy/matter comes from the mind and is an illusion, but somehow that doesn't ring true. So what verifies energy and matter? Isn't it the mind? And what is watching the mind? Is the mind just a hapless computer with nothing behind it? Is that the present experience? This inquiry is ONLY in your subjective experience - it is not "out there" in the empirical world. The empirical world has it's own inquiry method called science. These are in two different directions - outward: the empirical world, and inward: your subjective present experience.
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 21:58:52 GMT -5
enigma wrote: "How could there be a realm of the formless, and how could there be anything to understand about it?" Very interesting question. No way I can answer it. (and yet we try ) Do you conclude that form is all there is? And yet even form isn't really form - nothing rests, everything is changing, everything is in the process of becoming. Who truly understands that? I'm just saying that all knowledge relates to form only. It's knowledge about objects, and when we refer to formlessness, we no longer have a form to have knowledge about. "Realm" also seems to imply form, or 'happenings' of some kind, which in turn implies form in movement.
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 22:06:51 GMT -5
If it is a premise that comes from mind, then ignore it. I didn't say you are awareness, so I'm not inclined to defend that statement. What I said is that you aren't what you are watching. I don't understand. You conclude that, since without you, nothing you observe could exist, therefore you are the stuff that you observe?? How do you know there is still energy and matter without awareness? This is another preminse that comes from mind. Oh, that's easy, the universe has been estimated to be almost 14 billion years old. That means that it's been around a lot longer than the relatively new phenomena of human awareness, time wise. That's the thing about energy/matter, it's verifiable, where as awareness is not. I can say that the concept of energy/matter comes from the mind and is an illusion, but somehow that doesn't ring true. Awareness is verifiable, energy and matter are not. You know that you are aware, as a prerequisite to being aware of stuff like energy and matter. You don't, however, know for certain the validity of the stuff you are aware of, including time and space. All you know is that it appears to you.
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 22:11:45 GMT -5
I hear you mits. I too struggle with the paradox of "real life" vs "spiritual life". I know the argument is made that they are one in the same, but it doesn't always feel like that when the electric company is shutting off your power. It's much easier to ponder the big questions from a position of personal comfort. I have often wondered how I would react (spiritually) if my (real) world turned against me. Would I maintain my contentment, my integrity, my empathy? I would hope that I would, but you never can know for sure until your feet are put to the fire. That's why real life and spiritual life are the same.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 12, 2011 22:52:34 GMT -5
Oh, that's easy, the universe has been estimated to be almost 14 billion years old. That means that it's been around a lot longer than the relatively new phenomena of human awareness, time wise. That's the thing about energy/matter, it's verifiable, where as awareness is not. I can say that the concept of energy/matter comes from the mind and is an illusion, but somehow that doesn't ring true. Awareness is verifiable, energy and matter are not. You know that you are aware, as a prerequisite to being aware of stuff like energy and matter. You don't, however, know for certain the validity of the stuff you are aware of, including time and space. All you know is that it appears to you. heheh, ok, who is it that is verifying awareness? You say I know that I am aware, but where does this "knowledge" come from? Does it come from the brain which is an object or the mind which doesn't really exist? Where? If I am aware, I must be aware of something, they are two sides of the same coin... If I put my hand into a fire, I can be certain of the validity of the fire and that I am going to get burned. A fire is not a hallucination or a mirage. If the objects of the awareness didn't have a consistency or repeatable behavior, independent of awareness, it would be a chaotic world indeed. I believe, that awareness and the objective universe are one in the same and without either, there would be no consciousness.
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Post by enigma on Jan 12, 2011 23:33:38 GMT -5
Awareness is verifiable, energy and matter are not. You know that you are aware, as a prerequisite to being aware of stuff like energy and matter. You don't, however, know for certain the validity of the stuff you are aware of, including time and space. All you know is that it appears to you. heheh, ok, who is it that is verifying awareness? Who knows? Does it matter? Is it known or not? Who cares? Does it matter? I spose. Does that change something? You can be certain you will experience that. You can't be certain about the validity of anything outside of that experience itself. You might be in bed dreaming. You might be crazy. You don't know. So how do you know you didn't organize your experience so that it's not chaotic? How do you know anything is happening 'out there'? How do you know there is an 'out there'? I believe in the Easter bunny.
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Post by stepvhen on Jan 12, 2011 23:38:55 GMT -5
heheh, ok, who is it that is verifying awareness? You are making one huge assumption here.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 13, 2011 10:29:16 GMT -5
heheh, ok, who is it that is verifying awareness? Who knows? Does it matter? Is it known or not? Who cares? Does it matter? I spose. Does that change something? You can be certain you will experience that. You can't be certain about the validity of anything outside of that experience itself. You might be in bed dreaming. You might be crazy. You don't know. So how do you know you didn't organize your experience so that it's not chaotic? How do you know anything is happening 'out there'? How do you know there is an 'out there'? I believe in the Easter bunny. Lol of course you do.... Awareness and the Easter bunny are both non verifiable. When asked to defend your statement about awareness being verifiable I get, "Who knows", "Who cares", "I spose" and I believe in the Easter bunny..... Then you say the only real experience is that of knowing I'm aware, but all the other experiences are just bad dreams... All kidding aside, lol, the reason why awareness is not verifiable, is because it, is not a thing. It is nothing, it is quality less, it just is. You can't verify nothing. (You can borrow this if someone ever asks you the same question) Furthermore to use the object of awareness, the mind, to verify awareness, is purely mental gymnastics. TRF
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