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Post by enigma on Dec 19, 2010 21:52:17 GMT -5
Of course what you say is true, but if you experience guilt for instance and it is as you say an "unnecessary or erroneous thought", it is still felt in the body. Along with seeing, smelling, tasting, etc, etc, guilt arises, depression arises, sadness arises, hate arises, jealousy arises, greed arises, revenge arises. We don't ask for these feelings to arise but they do. Well, in a sense you DO ask for them to arise by engaging with those 'unnecessary thoughts'. It's a little like saying, 'but when I drop a rock on my foot, it still hurts, so how do I stop that?' I say don't drop a rock on your foot. What does "self aware" mean?
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Post by zendancer on Dec 19, 2010 22:37:33 GMT -5
Of course what you say is true, but if you experience guilt for instance and it is as you say an "unnecessary or erroneous thought", it is still felt in the body. Along with seeing, smelling, tasting, etc, etc, guilt arises, depression arises, sadness arises, hate arises, jealousy arises, greed arises, revenge arises. We don't ask for these feelings to arise but they do. Well, in a sense you DO ask for them to arise by engaging with those 'unnecessary thoughts'. It's a little like saying, 'but when I drop a rock on my foot, it still hurts, so how do I stop that?' I say don't drop a rock on your foot. Yes. Sadness, fear, or anger may arise quite legitimately and logically as a response to life events, but jealousy, hatred, guilt, and revenge are always the result of stories we tell ourselves and identify with. For example, the "keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome, which often involves jealousy, is caused by our indulgence in comparison-thinking. We look at our neighbor and compare some aspect of his life with our own. We judge our self-worth in comparison to what someone else has. This is just a bad habit, and it can be broken by shifting attention to what is actual. Just as we can learn to cut off fantasies as soon as they begin, we can also refuse to indulge in comparison-thinking and other forms of story-telling. In essence, the spiritual path of non-duality can be characterized as totally giving up the story of who we THINK we are in exchange for the recognition of who we REALLY are, beyond all thoughts. On the other hand, if, by "depression," you mean clinical depression rather than mild depression caused by comparing-mind or judgmental-mind habits, then I'd recommend visiting a physician and getting some help. I know many people who have had their lives improved dramatically with a little help from drugs that did nothing more than alter serotonin levels in the brain. One man I know was suffering fairly severe depression, but was reluctant to seek help because of a fear that drugs might interfere with his spiritual search. In his case the drugs he eventually received were spectacularly successful and did not interfere at all with his search. Two women I know suffered from postpartum depression, and both were returned to normalcy through drug therapy. I see no real difference between taking a statin to lower LDL cholesterol levels and taking an anti-depressant to raise serotonin levels. This may not apply in your case, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.
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Post by karen on Dec 20, 2010 20:50:00 GMT -5
Of course what you say is true, but if you experience guilt for instance and it is as you say an "unnecessary or erroneous thought", it is still felt in the body. Along with seeing, smelling, tasting, etc, etc, guilt arises, depression arises, sadness arises, hate arises, jealousy arises, greed arises, revenge arises. We don't ask for these feelings to arise but they do. Anyone can be self aware when things are good. It takes a real master to do it in the midst of a mind and body gripping depression. In those circumstances, I think a person would choose "physical pain" over psychological pain any day, I know I would. Hi TRF. That you experience what you call guilt, sadness, or jealousy is a fact. But that you know what those things are is what's fake. About being self aware when things are good - well just like anything you must learn this as a skill. But can you in fact now stay self aware and present for hours on end throughout the day? Because most of everyone's days are good. It's the bull$hit mind game they are playing in their heads is what is wrong - that then makes the day/week/month feel like hell. From what I can see - this path takes some work. And dues got to be paid. Though perhaps no dues payer.
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Post by enigma on Dec 20, 2010 21:10:40 GMT -5
Where do you spose the path leads?
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Post by karen on Dec 20, 2010 21:14:33 GMT -5
I've always assumed exhaustion of some kind.
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Post by enigma on Dec 20, 2010 22:18:14 GMT -5
So it makes sense that it would be a lot of work, huh? Hehe.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 21, 2010 11:32:35 GMT -5
Of course what you say is true, but if you experience guilt for instance and it is as you say an "unnecessary or erroneous thought", it is still felt in the body. Along with seeing, smelling, tasting, etc, etc, guilt arises, depression arises, sadness arises, hate arises, jealousy arises, greed arises, revenge arises. We don't ask for these feelings to arise but they do. Well, in a sense you DO ask for them to arise by engaging with those 'unnecessary thoughts'. It's a little like saying, 'but when I drop a rock on my foot, it still hurts, so how do I stop that?' I say don't drop a rock on your foot. What does "self aware" mean? Hi Enigma, In another post I said that I could act in a selfless way. You said that I couldn't, because it was the conditioning acting in an unconditional way. Now you seem to be saying, that a person "can" simply stop dropping the rock on their foot. Either we do have a choice in how we act, re: unselfishly and not dropping the rock on our foot or we don't through conditioning. Your statements seem to be diametrically opposed to each other, can you clarify, what you mean? Self awareness, means to me, when awareness becomes aware of itself. Other than that, I'm sure it has different meaning for different people. TRF
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Post by therealfake on Dec 21, 2010 11:47:01 GMT -5
Well, in a sense you DO ask for them to arise by engaging with those 'unnecessary thoughts'. It's a little like saying, 'but when I drop a rock on my foot, it still hurts, so how do I stop that?' I say don't drop a rock on your foot. Yes. Sadness, fear, or anger may arise quite legitimately and logically as a response to life events, but jealousy, hatred, guilt, and revenge are always the result of stories we tell ourselves and identify with. For example, the "keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome, which often involves jealousy, is caused by our indulgence in comparison-thinking. We look at our neighbor and compare some aspect of his life with our own. We judge our self-worth in comparison to what someone else has. This is just a bad habit, and it can be broken by shifting attention to what is actual. Just as we can learn to cut off fantasies as soon as they begin, we can also refuse to indulge in comparison-thinking and other forms of story-telling. In essence, the spiritual path of non-duality can be characterized as totally giving up the story of who we THINK we are in exchange for the recognition of who we REALLY are, beyond all thoughts. On the other hand, if, by "depression," you mean clinical depression rather than mild depression caused by comparing-mind or judgmental-mind habits, then I'd recommend visiting a physician and getting some help. I know many people who have had their lives improved dramatically with a little help from drugs that did nothing more than alter serotonin levels in the brain. One man I know was suffering fairly severe depression, but was reluctant to seek help because of a fear that drugs might interfere with his spiritual search. In his case the drugs he eventually received were spectacularly successful and did not interfere at all with his search. Two women I know suffered from postpartum depression, and both were returned to normalcy through drug therapy. I see no real difference between taking a statin to lower LDL cholesterol levels and taking an anti-depressant to raise serotonin levels. This may not apply in your case, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Hi zendancer, I'm only mentioning clinical depression as a component of reality and how that physical component can't be fixed through self realization. There is a world of the subconscious which keeps the heart pumping, the serotonin flowing and the lungs breathing, etc, etc... Seems like there isn't much info on how this subconscious part of us plays out in self realization. TRF
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Post by question on Dec 21, 2010 11:52:49 GMT -5
Self awareness, means to me, when awareness becomes aware of itself. Wouldn't that entail a paradox? Is it itself that awareness is aware of, or is it a representation of what the mind thinks awareness feels like?
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2010 12:04:38 GMT -5
Well, in a sense you DO ask for them to arise by engaging with those 'unnecessary thoughts'. It's a little like saying, 'but when I drop a rock on my foot, it still hurts, so how do I stop that?' I say don't drop a rock on your foot. What does "self aware" mean? Hi Enigma, In another post I said that I could act in a selfless way. You said that I couldn't, because it was the conditioning acting in an unconditional way. Now you seem to be saying, that a person "can" simply stop dropping the rock on their foot. Either we do have a choice in how we act, re: unselfishly and not dropping the rock on our foot or we don't through conditioning. Your statements seem to be diametrically opposed to each other, can you clarify, what you mean? Self awareness, means to me, when awareness becomes aware of itself. Other than that, I'm sure it has different meaning for different people. TRF Hi TRF Self awareness, then, is Self realization or enlightenment and is exceedingly rare and isn't something anybody can do under even the best conditions and is actually most likely under the absolute worst conditions. It sounds a bit like you're talking about being present or sumthin, which is why I asked. A self (person) can ACT in a selfless way but cannot actually be selfless. It's just an act carried out through, and in the interest of, the self. To be selfless means to be without self. I don't mean to say the person has a choice as to dropping the rock on their foot. I was pointing out that the problem and the solution are in the same context. Though there is no volition, nothing is imposed from 'outside' either. If you drop a rock on your foot, it's because you were motivated to do so, and we can say this motivation comes from your conditioning. It means you wanted to drop the rock on your foot for whatever reason. To then ask how you can stop dropping the rock implies you also want to stop, and this desire also comes from your conditioning. You are holding two contradictory desires at the same time, which leaves no room for resolution. I was just pointing out the contradiction. Typically, when such contradictions are clearly noticed, it's clear that one of the conflicting desires has to be 'dropped'.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2010 12:31:40 GMT -5
Yes. Sadness, fear, or anger may arise quite legitimately and logically as a response to life events, but jealousy, hatred, guilt, and revenge are always the result of stories we tell ourselves and identify with. For example, the "keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome, which often involves jealousy, is caused by our indulgence in comparison-thinking. We look at our neighbor and compare some aspect of his life with our own. We judge our self-worth in comparison to what someone else has. This is just a bad habit, and it can be broken by shifting attention to what is actual. Just as we can learn to cut off fantasies as soon as they begin, we can also refuse to indulge in comparison-thinking and other forms of story-telling. In essence, the spiritual path of non-duality can be characterized as totally giving up the story of who we THINK we are in exchange for the recognition of who we REALLY are, beyond all thoughts. On the other hand, if, by "depression," you mean clinical depression rather than mild depression caused by comparing-mind or judgmental-mind habits, then I'd recommend visiting a physician and getting some help. I know many people who have had their lives improved dramatically with a little help from drugs that did nothing more than alter serotonin levels in the brain. One man I know was suffering fairly severe depression, but was reluctant to seek help because of a fear that drugs might interfere with his spiritual search. In his case the drugs he eventually received were spectacularly successful and did not interfere at all with his search. Two women I know suffered from postpartum depression, and both were returned to normalcy through drug therapy. I see no real difference between taking a statin to lower LDL cholesterol levels and taking an anti-depressant to raise serotonin levels. This may not apply in your case, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Hi zendancer, I'm only mentioning clinical depression as a component of reality and how that physical component can't be fixed through self realization. There is a world of the subconscious which keeps the heart pumping, the serotonin flowing and the lungs breathing, etc, etc... Seems like there isn't much info on how this subconscious part of us plays out in self realization. TRF Mind and body are not separate, and so chemical imbalances are inseparable from mental imbalances. Long term mental/emotional imbalances implies a grasping, struggling attachment that is contradictory to Self realization. What we typically call the subconscious is fundamentally a background function of the individuation that allows it to function with minimal conscious attention. This is how we walk and talk and such, and the body functions harmoniously without conscious interference. (Bodily death is also a natural, harmonious function of life) This subconscious process is also used by the imagined false mind/body identification to create conflict and disharmony such as 'clinical depression'. In Self realization, the false identity, and therefore the subconscious conflict, is removed.
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Post by enigma on Dec 21, 2010 12:34:45 GMT -5
Self awareness, means to me, when awareness becomes aware of itself. Wouldn't that entail a paradox? Is it itself that awareness is aware of, or is it a representation of what the mind thinks awareness feels like? Either can happen. Awareness aware of itself is not a paradox, though it is not a subject/object relationship.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 21, 2010 13:10:17 GMT -5
Self awareness, means to me, when awareness becomes aware of itself. Wouldn't that entail a paradox? Is it itself that awareness is aware of, or is it a representation of what the mind thinks awareness feels like? Hi question, I guess the point is, can awareness be aware of itself? The answer depends on what one believes is possible. I am not convinced either way, I am just offering a playful concept of how it might be possible. If I look at say an apple, I see an apple. If I look at the apple and am aware that I am not really seeing an apple, but a description or label of an apple, I have made a distinction between observer, perceiver and object perceived. I only recognize my awareness or am aware of it, by proxy, using the object apple to split the experience into 2 parts. If I wasn't already there, or the awareness, I wouldn't be able to recognize myself and the apple as forming the experience of an apple. I simply recognize myself as the awareness, from the process of conscious observation. Can I turn awareness around on to itself, directly? I'm not so sure about that one. TRF
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Post by therealfake on Dec 21, 2010 17:34:59 GMT -5
Hi Enigma,
You said, "A self (person) can ACT in a selfless way but cannot actually be selfless. It's just an act carried out through, and in the interest of, the self. To be selfless means to be without self."
I'm not so sure that doing a selfless act, is in any way, an act carried out in the "interest", of the self.
It seems to me, that the act of unselfishness alone, reveals how selfish and self absorbed the self really is.
I don't know how it would further it's cause and deception, by also showing how delusional and insane it is, by pretending to act unselfishly, when that's clearly not it's nature.
To truly act in it's own interest, I think that it would rather act in ways that keep itself hidden and consequently safe from scrutiny.
When I say I can act in a selfless way, I mean that, I can act in way that more aptly reflects that which is not a self, that which is there, even before, the thought of self arises.
TRF
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Post by question on Dec 21, 2010 18:04:33 GMT -5
I shoulda clarified. I don't have a problem with saying that awareness is aware of itself. I have a problem with saying that at some point in time awareness becomes aware of itself. Big difference imo.
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