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Post by further on Dec 13, 2010 4:30:51 GMT -5
In hist latest satsang, Ed Muzika explained why he choose to engage in the world and help sentient beings ease their suffering: itisnotreal.blogspot.com/2010/12/consciousness-is-harsh-mistress.htmlAfter reading it, I still can't see a strong argument to make everything fit together. He says the world is not real on one hand. On the other hand, he seems to say the suffering is real so there is need to "bring more love, light, and compassion to the world." His answer is more like a person choice rather than viewing the dilemma from enlightened viewpoint. He also quote Bodhisattva vow to support his argument. But his interpretation is completely wrong. Bodhisattva vow is aimed to bring all sentient beings to Nirvana, not to ease their everyday suffering. Any suggestion is welcome. Oh, BTW, they don't allow me to put this question in the blog comment section. So I come here for help. No hard feeling. Just want to get my answer.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 13, 2010 13:08:34 GMT -5
Further,
I would hold my judgments with Edji. Taking the nonduality idea and I am not saying that you are here but a lot of folks think that suffering of cats that are starving for food is not real. It's very real for the poor cats. It is never correct to try to overlay the Absolute(Ultimate truth) on top of mind creations and say they are not real because they are. We have way way to much intellectualism around these subjects.
Ed speaks on many different levels at once so I see where you or anyone could become confused. His teacher Robert Adam's was one of the very few fully realized teachers in the world. My personal opinion so is Edji.
When anyone truly awakes the compassion and love they have is greatly increased not decreased because they have realized who and what they are.
It's best to not look for fault in anything and if you find confusion it is best just to be with the confusion until you are able to simply be here and now. In the here and now all is perfect. It has to be as this is all we ever have.
Peace Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2010 15:32:16 GMT -5
In hist latest satsang, Ed Muzika explained why he choose to engage in the world and help sentient beings ease their suffering: itisnotreal.blogspot.com/2010/12/consciousness-is-harsh-mistress.htmlAfter reading it, I still can't see a strong argument to make everything fit together. He says the world is not real on one hand. On the other hand, he seems to say the suffering is real so there is need to "bring more love, light, and compassion to the world." His answer is more like a person choice rather than viewing the dilemma from enlightened viewpoint. He also quote Bodhisattva vow to support his argument. But his interpretation is completely wrong. Bodhisattva vow is aimed to bring all sentient beings to Nirvana, not to ease their everyday suffering. Any suggestion is welcome. Oh, BTW, they don't allow me to put this question in the blog comment section. So I come here for help. No hard feeling. Just want to get my answer. I'm in agreement with your assessment. I don't know Ed beyond the video you shared, but my impression is that he would best serve the world by becoming fully Awakened himself. Yes, the Bodhisattva vow is to move consciousness toward Self realization, which is the only solution to suffering, and not trying to tilt the self defining dualistic balance. He implies this himself when he repeatedly says the world has not improved. Perhaps his cat efforts will be the one thing humanity hasn't tried yet? I have no issue with trying to make the world a better place, and the person will do what it does, whether 'Awakened' or not. If Ed wants to save cats for the same reason he continues to go to movies, that's fine, but the implication that enlightenment leads to the conclusion that them damn politicians need to be put in their place is a misunderstanding of how dualistic experience actually works and who those damn politicians actually are, which should be clear from an 'enlightened' perspective. There's a very good reason why the world has not become a better place over thousands of years, and it's not for lack of Ed's enlightened cat feeding. He seems clear that our personal worlds are made up of thought, and yet the thought that he and his friends are right and the politicians and neighbors are wrong, somehow seems to transcend these conceptual boundaries for him. He sees that the separate person doesn't exist, and yet believes it can make a choice. He sees that Consciousness itself is 'unreal' and is but an ever changing movement, and yet seems to believe that his movement is real and is somehow outside of the rest of the movement. The experience of better and worse is ungrounded and self defining in dualistic experience, and this is why the experience doesn't get better overall. There is only the movement itself, whether it be toward improvement or away from it, both of which will happen because better and worse define each other. By it's nature, dualistic experience cannot be permanently tipped off balance, which is why we seek to transcend it rather than fix it. A few months ago in one of our squirrel satsangs, Marie said something, and I couldn't stop smiling for a couple of hours. She said "What humans do doesn't work." It sounds simple, and maybe obvious, but there was a deep realization of this fact, and it dissolves the struggle to fix.....anything, and only then does the attention fall back on itself. Marie is a simple and deeply compassionate and loving woman, but maybe she understands something Edji doesn't.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 13, 2010 15:59:59 GMT -5
Not really Enigma you are dancing on a very thin line when you write like this in my opinion
Remember one thing you can take any real awakened teacher/master(which the world always has very few of) and read what they write about keeping you own duties as a human being/household things as a priority. Atmananda actually put this above all spiritual work as Niz will tell you the same. The nondualitly copout that you are using here will keep one completely lost in the world you live in. This is exactly why all the real masters would put doing your share and even above it and doing it right meant more to them than any amount of "spiritual work"
All of this has a place no matter how evolved someone may think they are. There are right and wrongs in the world, again Atmanada was a police officer.
Today most folks not all but most use a lot of non dualitly to just let things go as they are. If you studie the works of people like Nis, RM, Atma etc you would see that they never did this and attended to anything that had a need where they could be of help.
This is one of the reasons why I do not see much value in the neo-advaita path as so many of them just excuse whatever happens as what is and then sit on their ass and do nothing. I am not saying all but a lot of them.
How all this works in regarding to your own spirituality is important, very important. This is what I feel Edji is saying. It's not too difficult to read between the lines.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2010 16:47:39 GMT -5
As I say I have no problem with helping and the person will do what he does. I'm not advocating some neo-advaita sit on your ass blah, blah. Dismissing the reality of how experience actually functions by using that tactic is what leads to struggling with politics and bad neighbors and killing animals for food. I believe it was also Niz who said remove yourself from the world and see if there is still a problem.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 13, 2010 17:47:49 GMT -5
Maybe not sure but I certainly could see Niz saying that. He also said that if you have a family and do not attend to it then your spirituality is useless and for Edji the cats are his family.
The point is not to jump into something where maybe only one video of info is all someone has to make a opinion.
Michael
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Post by zendancer on Dec 13, 2010 18:58:01 GMT -5
Ummmmm, I got the same impression of Edji's comments as E. did. Transcendence usually leads away from preachiness and judgmentalness of any kind and toward direct action and direct understanding. Transcendence does not imply any particular viewpoint, but this does not mean that it condones whatever happens. Emptiness functions however it functions, and in the deepest sense it is all the will of Source made manifest.
Transcendence is also a movement away from abstraction toward the concreteness of reality actualized in the immediate moment. This is why huge concepts like "world peace" or "international politics" hold less interest for someone who has realized the Self than whatever is happening right in front of them. The truth is always here and now, not in an abstraction of the mind. The question is not, "What can I do to end human war?" it is ""What can I do to end the war within my mind," and "What can I do to help the person standing in front of me?"
I can't think of a single well-known mystic in human history who would disagree with the statement, "The world is perfect." This is the fundamental experience of everyone who has a cosmic consciousness experience, but it has nothing to do with ideas of good or bad. The perfection pointed to by mystics is beyond all opposites. Someone who has not had that sort of unity-consciousness experience might be horrified by the statement that the world is perfect, and might respond, "You mean that genocide, torture, earthquakes, famines, and horrible deaths from cancer are all perfect?" Such a question arises from not seeing the bigger picture, but the answer is, "Yes; all of that is included in the perfection."
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 13, 2010 19:44:08 GMT -5
Sure ZD of course I guess I have a small thorn in my butt on this topic. Yes the world is perfect in the ultimate sense. True when one has such a experience and the truth is shown this make sense and can be wholly accepted. But I feel it's a mistake to judge another person's awakening/realization as one senior member here has because of words Edji used on a subject he is very compassionate about.
The world may be perfect but in this perfection there are a infinite ways to tell the world story. No right or wrong way, just ways.
Peace Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2010 22:03:04 GMT -5
Well, heck it was just an opinion. He spent half of the 30 min video bitching about the world and then petitioned for contributions, not to expand his Satsangs but to fund his save the cats foundation. My perspective was highly motivated by your own assessment that Edji is one of the few fully realized teachers and it seemed appropriate to at least pull him back from that ethereal cloud and have a closer look see. Presently, I'm not so inclined, but if I ever see an indication that he's made peace with the world around him, I might explore further.
As an aside, and again I could be wrong, but it sounded to me like he was reading a speech from his computer monitor, or at least notes. I found that a bit odd.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 13, 2010 22:16:48 GMT -5
No problem you are still my favorite enigma
Michael
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Post by sherry on Dec 13, 2010 22:26:00 GMT -5
It is as it is and it's all fine. I don't understand the need to pick a side (withdraw or participate) or to worry about what others are doing in that regard..... We do what we do and in the unfolding, there is an important role for all.
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Post by enigma on Dec 13, 2010 23:04:33 GMT -5
"No problem you are still my favorite enigma
Michael"
Groovy, man.
Sherry: "It is as it is and it's all fine. I don't understand the need to pick a side (withdraw or participate) or to worry about what others are doing in that regard..... We do what we do and in the unfolding, there is an important role for all."
Sure. It's not really an issue of picking a side or worrying about anything. It's more an issue of how one responds to clarity.
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 14, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
In hist latest satsang, Ed Muzika explained why he choose to engage in the world and help sentient beings ease their suffering:
Salute! Salute!
I am ALL for you!
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Post by enigma on Dec 14, 2010 13:34:59 GMT -5
In hist latest satsang, Ed Muzika explained why he choose to engage in the world and help sentient beings ease their suffering: Salute! Salute!
I am ALL for you!We live in a relative existence that maintains it's own balance of suffering and non-suffering because they define each other. Another way to experience more non-suffering is to create more suffering. (Anybody want to donate to my 'kill the cats' foundation?) It's all very dramatic but doesn't actually change anything.
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 14, 2010 13:59:52 GMT -5
In hist latest satsang, Ed Muzika explained why he choose to engage in the world and help sentient beings ease their suffering: Salute! Salute!
I am ALL for you!We live in a relative existence that maintains it's own balance of suffering and non-suffering because they define each other. Another way to experience more non-suffering is to create more suffering. (Anybody want to donate to my 'kill the cats' foundation?) It's all very dramatic but doesn't actually change anything. Say what you think, I love this guy, and anyone who helps animals!
Especially since so much of their suffering is due to humans.
"One person asked me once, Ed, why do you put so much importance on animals when you realize that the world is not real? My answer is, do you stop going to movies even though you realize they are not real? Your apparent body is going to live another 30-40 years or so, so what do you do? Nothing? Stop eating and allow yourself to starve to death, or do you participate? Ramana and Robert mostly chose to withdraw, but to withdraw or participate is up to you. In the same vein, the more you are aware of your inner sense of presence, the happier you become, and the more compassionate you become, which frees energy and confidence, which allow you to actually to do something in the world. Combine that with the growing sense of justice that Nisargadatta talked about, and many who are realized feel an obligation to engage in the world. The unreal world exists totally within that sense of presence, and that sense of presence is itself filled with love and is love. It is almost automatic that a person immersed in that sense of presence acts compassionately and with love in all actions. We can all regard ourselves as part of a movement of conscience within consciousness that has always been there, and whose focus has been to reduce suffering everywhere. In fact, ending suffering was the single goal of classical Buddhism. One of four vows says, "Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them all.” The act of saving is an act of supreme happiness. You are saving your beloved, and in that saving you find more love. You are my spiritual family, and I wish you all very well. I love you all, and hope you find some peace and well-being in your life through spiritual practices. Then, when you feel ready, look inside your heart to find out who you are, and then look outside to find how that movement of conscience and compassion within the greater envelope of consciousness as a whole, is directing you to serve as a shepherd for all sentient beings." I wonder enigma, what if it were your cat? Your cat suffering? Would you say to your cat, "We live in a relative existence that maintains it's own balance of suffering and non-suffering because they define each other."
Would that help your cat?
Beautiful conceptual truths need a Heart to go with them. Adn sometimes ya just got to throw the words and beliefs away and let there be Love.
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