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Post by enigma on Dec 22, 2010 20:34:50 GMT -5
Enigma, What a magnificent post that is! In the mind-blowing category, hi-hi. The understanding of it leaves me with some kind of satisfactory well-being which is neither joyful nor not. Perhaps this stubborn carapace I think myself to wear is eroding some, unnoticed. Aah! There is a temptation to wish it would be easier to put words to it, but then to paraphrase Lao-Tzu it wouldn’t be the Tao, would it? That's cool. Funny thing is mind is never going where it thinks it's going or it would already be there. It's actually going out of business and nobody is interested in doing that, so in a way mind is always the last to know when some 'useful' change takes place. There might be, as you imply, some kind of an undefinable ease or sense of peace or detachment or a frightening emptiness, and maybe only recognized in retrospect, but nothing mind can point to and take credit for since it didn't do anything, but is rather being undone. As such, it can be helpful to just keep looking for what's true (or not true) and disregarding the ideas about whether or not it's working. Mind isn't in a position to know what works and typically comes to the wrong conclusion. Mind is looking for 4-leaf clovers in a field of tulips, and hasn't noticed the tulips. Well, seeking is a movement of experience that's fine until it isn't anymore. As long as there's an interest in this movement it continues, and as long as it seems like it's working in some way, the interest continues. When it starts to look like nothing is working, then there is necessarily frustration and dis-ease, but this is very auspicious. After all, the goal of the seeking is really to end the seeking, and almost nobody knows what it's like to not seek.
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Post by question on Dec 22, 2010 20:46:12 GMT -5
Maybe we could say that Self awareness is the awareness that all there is, is awareness. I don't see how we can. Because that would imply some sort of cognition and more importantly an interest in the question ("Is awareness all there is?" (although probably not in so many words, or maybe none at all...)), which again implies a history of questioning, even if the strategy is about becoming aware of what is not so. Yes that's what I meant. Although, I don't understand what it means. That awareness is aware of itself, because it is impossibly obvious to be hidden seems to me like a tautology, maybe even an axiom. And I'm fond of the idea that axioms can only be expressed, but never understood. Best we can do is formalize the expression and within the language of that formalization express an alternative. What is understood then is only the language of that formalization but not what it's supposed to express.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 22, 2010 20:48:57 GMT -5
From all my years of exploring, seeking, non seeking which can be the sister to seeking I have found that we have one power. The power of attention and placement. We can put our attention where ever we wish. We can have attention without any anticipation .
Paying attention by allowing out attention to arrive at it's own being-ness is critical in moving forward from my experience of awakening. This is not to say that we may be visited by grace from time to time, indeed this happens and by attending to what we have received is the sure way of preserving and moving forward.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 22, 2010 22:17:54 GMT -5
Maybe we could say that Self awareness is the awareness that all there is, is awareness. I don't see how we can. Because that would imply some sort of cognition and more importantly an interest in the question ("Is awareness all there is?" (although probably not in so many words, or maybe none at all...)), which again implies a history of questioning, even if the strategy is about becoming aware of what is not so. Well, implications are more the problem than they are part of the solution. Still, if we go with the idea that cognition and interest and questioning are in some ways integral to Self awareness, then it is awareness cognizing, being interested and questioning. When I say all there is, is awareness, I don't mean to say appearances don't appear in awareness. Clearly they do, but what appears in awareness is not other than awareness itself, appearing. Are they happening outside of awareness? Do they have existence apart from awareness? Is there some thinking happening 'out there' somewhere that there is no awareness of? If we go with the implication idea, then the fact that something is appearing implies awareness is present a priori. Sounds right to me.
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Post by vacant on Dec 23, 2010 15:25:01 GMT -5
That's cool. Funny thing is mind is never going where it thinks it's going or it would already be there. It's actually going out of business and nobody is interested in doing that, so in a way mind is always the last to know when some 'useful' change takes place. There might be, as you imply, some kind of an undefinable ease or sense of peace or detachment or a frightening emptiness, and maybe only recognized in retrospect, but nothing mind can point to and take credit for since it didn't do anything, but is rather being undone. As such, it can be helpful to just keep looking for what's true (or not true) and disregarding the ideas about whether or not it's working. Mind isn't in a position to know what works and typically comes to the wrong conclusion. Mind is looking for 4-leaf clovers in a field of tulips, and hasn't noticed the tulips. Oh you’re so right! No way at all to monitor or clock any progress. One can only let what’s going on keep on going on. A recurring resistance I find to that is fearing the stuff that resembles religious blind faith. But it’s getting clearer that faith is not needed —conjuring faith is a vainglorious attempt to influence an imaginary outcome— the goings-on cannot be encouraged nor discouraged, tempered with in any way.
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Post by enigma on Dec 23, 2010 22:18:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't have much faith in faith either. Hehe. If one is looking to see what's actually true, faith seems to contradict the focus.
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Post by question on Dec 24, 2010 11:06:39 GMT -5
When I mentioned the implications (cognition, interest, questioning) it was a response to the "awareness that awareness is all there is" quote. I'm not saying that cognition is integral to Self Awareness. I'm saying that it is integral to the idea that "awareness is all there is". Self Awareness and knowledge of Self Awareness are different things, and even more different are assumptions about awareness (to which I would include the "all there is" quote).
Next you seem to be justifying the formula (self awareness, awareness as all there is) with the notion that since what cognition "really is" is awareness, then the one cognizing is actually awareness. Even if that is so, it's not relevant to our question. Cogniton is symbolic and hence what awareness understands when it cognizes the formula "I am all there is" is a fairytale and not a fundamental truth. Cognition in this context doesn't really know what it's talking about, awareness doesn't really understand what it's cognizing.
My hunch is that awareness in a mindless bug is totally self aware, but doesn't know it. Even when the bug grows a proper cognition, what will be cognized will have nothing to do with self awareness.
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Post by enigma on Dec 24, 2010 11:44:03 GMT -5
When I mentioned the implications (cognition, interest, questioning) it was a response to the "awareness that awareness is all there is" quote. I'm not saying that cognition is integral to Self Awareness. I'm saying that it is integral to the idea that "awareness is all there is". Self Awareness and knowledge of Self Awareness are different things, and even more different are assumptions about awareness (to which I would include the "all there is" quote). Yes, cognition is integral to ideas. Hard to argue with that. Assuming I understand what you're saying, which is a big assumption on my part, my saying awareness is all there is, is not an assumption about awareness. That which is not so is as self evident as that which is too obvious to not know. If I tell you a lie, there's no assumption in saying the lie is not true and existence had to be present to tell that lie. I'm not justifying a formula with an idea. I'm just sayin.
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Post by question on Dec 24, 2010 15:52:31 GMT -5
my saying awareness is all there is, is not an assumption about awareness. True if by "all there is" you mean "awareness". In which case it's an assumption about "all there is" and then the investigation is redundant.
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Post by therealfake on Dec 24, 2010 18:43:25 GMT -5
From all my years of exploring, seeking, non seeking which can be the sister to seeking I have found that we have one power. The power of attention and placement. We can put our attention where ever we wish. We can have attention without any anticipation . Paying attention by allowing out attention to arrive at it's own being-ness is critical in moving forward from my experience of awakening. This is not to say that we may be visited by grace from time to time, indeed this happens and by attending to what we have received is the sure way of preserving and moving forward. Michael On the subject of attention... Mooji or another spiritual teacher once said that, "when the attention pays attention to an object, that is actually in-attention". "When attention pays attention to attention, that's attention". "Then there is only stillness". I like to, if and when I remember, to pay attention to the "holes" or "spaces" of silence, between the constant barrage of sounds of our daily activities. One would think that there is always something to hear, but that's not true. When I can identify the silence, or stillness, I'm actually paying attention to attention. It's a good way to experience this concept and expand personal consciousness TRF
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Post by further on Feb 5, 2011 4:14:54 GMT -5
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 14:23:54 GMT -5
Thank you Further
Michael
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Post by edwardmuzika on Feb 7, 2011 14:58:38 GMT -5
The phrase not real cause a lot of intellectual problems. What does it mean? It means there i no separate existence or reality of anything but you, the self. Only self is. The cat as separate from you is unreal. A starving child as separate from you is unreal. Awakening means the heart is completely open to all suffering as your own.
Unless your heart is completely open, you will be reading and listening to teachers with your mind only, and the mind can never lead you to liberation.
If you interpret the vow of ending suffering as only taking a perfectly happy entity from human happiness to liberation, you miss the point of the vow. If you listened to the vow with your heart, it means you give a poor man with no shoes, your shoes, and you give a hungry cat some food.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 7, 2011 15:12:44 GMT -5
Welcome Edji to the board. I do hope you will post more when you have time.
Peace Michael
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Post by enigma on Feb 7, 2011 22:24:41 GMT -5
That which appears as an expression of a saviour vows to end the suffering of that which appears as an expression of suffering. What is this which stands beyond the suffering, understands the universal function of that suffering, and has deemed it in error and in need of correction? How far beyond God must one stand to be able to perceive the tremble in the baton in the hand of the Grand Conductor? As an expression of compassion, this too is a part of the ensemble. When this compassion drives the musician to play in opposition to another instead of in harmony, he strikes a discordant note instead of the consonant one he vowed to play.
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