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Post by michaelsees on Dec 17, 2010 16:31:38 GMT -5
The process of knowing what we are is of part elimination. You begin by knowing what you are not. Neti Neti as the Hindus say. But simple things need no understanding when a animal is hurt and is crying one does not need any superiority to know the animal is in pain and not in a happy state. In this country there is huge denial when it comes to animals. When I was on my retreat I shot 2 rabbits, each one with a 22 in the head they died in less than a second. This can sound cruel however the same person that proudly says you are spiritual and you hunt I could never hunt but they have no problem at all buying slaughtered animals in a meat market. Most of these animals have lead a horrible life of pain and abuse yet most people simply block it out and are hypocrites. So no superiority never enters the picture when it comes to animal abuse it's only common sense which is far from common these days. Michael All this assumes a superiority(unfounded) toward all animals as if we know their condition. How in hell can we assume even this when we don't even know what we are!
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2010 19:41:24 GMT -5
The funny thing is that relating happens only in ignorance. Ignorance being the grasping of false knowledge....nothing cynical or judgmental about it. In the absence of ignorance, there literally isn't anything very interesting to talk about. The woo woo enlightened guru can easily relate to the 'unenlightened' because there is ignorance present, but one 'enlightened' dude has nothing at all to say to another 'enlightened' dude, which is why you rarely see them together. They see precisely the same 'thing' and comparing notes on how to conceptualize it isn't useful unless there is somebody listening to that conceptualization and potentially making use of it. There cannot be a world full of Awakened beings. It won't function. Ignorance is what makes the world go round. Hehe. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I didn't get the last three lines of your post until just now. You're too funny, and I'm always a day late and a dollar short. LOL.
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Post by klaus on Dec 17, 2010 20:20:00 GMT -5
michael,
Slaughtering two rabbits or slaughtering en masse is not the point. The point is we do not know their condition.
We can only stand in awe at their manifestation in the conditional world.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 17, 2010 20:45:00 GMT -5
Well Klaus you are certainly welcome to your opinion. However you sidestepped my point. A animal that has been abused or hurt and is crying is hurt and in pain and if you or anyone has a difficult time with that then I can say no more to you.
Michael
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Post by monkkey on Dec 17, 2010 21:01:26 GMT -5
yes, it does appear that in the human story, characters bond in suffering and fly in freedom. civilization seems to require a gravitation toward conserving a sense of bonding. it is a beautiful story though, full of impersonal suffering and inexplicable joy, and other polarities. the greatest ride in the dreamstory is being aware of the energetic polarities playing out as Niz's/one's own movement between everything/love and nothing/wisdom. of course, the ticket costs everything or nothing, depending...
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2010 21:13:54 GMT -5
The funny thing is that relating happens only in ignorance. Ignorance being the grasping of false knowledge....nothing cynical or judgmental about it. In the absence of ignorance, there literally isn't anything very interesting to talk about. And that would be a travesty? Nothing interesting to talk about. It would be an overhaul in one's life. Like your life. I don't recall saying anything about a travesty. Did you pull that out of your shoe? Somebody wondered what a world full of awakened beings would be like, so that's what I was jabbering about. Well, no. If you're interested in what I'm talking about, lemme know. Of course the world functions. It just doesn't function the way you want it to. It's this kind of attitiude that give the gurus something to talk about. Hehe. Well, I can't spin it all by myself. Fortunately, I have lots of help.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 17, 2010 21:14:33 GMT -5
Well here's the thing everything can get twisted very fast as you can see on this thread when everyone injects something from many different levels using only a well thought intellectual tone. However all this makes sense when you just live your life in freedom. When sadness comes it comes, when animals get hurt or abused and you happen to cross paths then if you really are living a awaken life you will react to this and you will find your heart wanting to help. What gets confusing is when everyone interjects different levels of intellectual reactions in a very 2D way with just words on a forum.
The ego loves this and plays with such intellectual superiority but when something happens in the real, in your own 3D world I promise you that you will not react with a bunch of well chosen words in your mouth but you hopefully will react with heart.
Michael just rambling on here.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2010 21:19:28 GMT -5
The hatefullness and struggle folks have with each other goes hoof in hoof with the struggle to save the victims from the perpetrators, and this is done in the name of love. If one cannot love the cats without hating the politicians, the heart remains divided. Love moves differently and so does compassion. In such a way that it doesn't make enemies of itself in it's loving expression. Sentimentality is not Love. Unicity is not seen through divisiveness. Compassion does not deny perfection. Of course. That's what I've been saying. The notion that 'you' can love is sumthin else that can be looked at.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2010 21:33:39 GMT -5
Then we agree after all and there is no 'fight'? I was talking about fighting you. lol That's what I was talking about. Great, then again we agree and the fight is not with me. (I'm a poet and didn't know it!) I would say love melts the resistance in the human heart, at least when it's genuine. Maybe you've started wearing your shoes on your ears so's you can't hear me? Okay, that's a pretty funny image. Hehe.
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Post by enigma on Dec 17, 2010 21:35:54 GMT -5
The funny thing is that relating happens only in ignorance. Ignorance being the grasping of false knowledge....nothing cynical or judgmental about it. In the absence of ignorance, there literally isn't anything very interesting to talk about. The woo woo enlightened guru can easily relate to the 'unenlightened' because there is ignorance present, but one 'enlightened' dude has nothing at all to say to another 'enlightened' dude, which is why you rarely see them together. They see precisely the same 'thing' and comparing notes on how to conceptualize it isn't useful unless there is somebody listening to that conceptualization and potentially making use of it. There cannot be a world full of Awakened beings. It won't function. Ignorance is what makes the world go round. Hehe. Really nice post (maybe except the last line). Thanks! Oh, goody. Can we 'fight' about the last line?
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Post by Portto on Dec 18, 2010 8:00:36 GMT -5
Hehe, Ignorance keeps the 'fight' going! Ignorance is what makes the world go round. Ignorance is an appearance, so how can it make the world go round?
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Post by ravenscroft on Dec 18, 2010 10:12:50 GMT -5
I would give Ed Muzika benefit of the doubt last time I spoke with him he was compiling a ton of work done by the late advaita teacher Robert Adams Ed seemed like a pretty well informed guy (although I agree with many others on this thread that that the only gift we can give the world is our awakening)
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Post by zendancer on Dec 18, 2010 10:24:43 GMT -5
Lexi: What E. is pointing to can be explained like this:
1. Who you think you are has no control over the thoughts that appear in the field of consciousness (in "your" field of consciousness). They simply appear. We can say that "your" particular thoughts occur as a result of "your" genetic makeup, "your" conditioning, "your" life experiences, "your" prior thoughts, etc. If "you" have a deep affinity for animals, it is only because this is how Source manifests through "your" body/mind. "You" do not own that affinity.
2. "Your" compassion and affinity for animals is neither good nor bad, neither superior nor inferior, to how other people are motivated. Thoughts appear in other minds that are just as empty and unowned as the ones that appear in yours. A hunter, for example, has a different world view than "your" own, but it, too, is neither better nor worse than "yours" because it isn't owned in the same way that "your" view isn't owned.
3. There are no implications in any of this because the truth is fundamentally empty. If "you" wish, "you" can blame God for how the universe is manifested, but I would suggest that such blame would miss the point entirely and also be a big waste of time. If you go deep enough, you will see the beauty, wonder, and perfection of the world, exactly as it is.
4. "You" don't really have a choice in how things play out, but for purposes of pointing to the truth, we can say that "you" have a choice of accepting reality as it is or resisting it. I can assure you that accepting it is lots more fun and lots less stressful than the alternative.
5. If "you" accept reality as it is, with its hunters and criminals and other people who don't share "your" viewpoint, "you" will simply do what "you" do in a state of empty open happy loving oneness. Maybe you will open animal shelters, or spend money to raise other people's awareness about animal rights, or do other similar things, but you won't carry the burden of judging those who don't share "your" viewpopint. "You" will realize that they are no more responsible for their viewpoint than "you" are for "yours."
In the above paragraphs I have used an explanatory approach similar to that used by Ramesh Balsekar. I could use other teaching methodologies to point to the very same thing. To get free, if that is one of "your" desires, "you" will have to go beyond thinking "my viewpoint is holier than someone else's viewpoint" because there is no "you." "Your" thoughts are not "yours." If this can be seen, then you can enjoy helping animals without carrying any extra psychological weight. I can assure you that carrying a "you," and the ownership of "your" ideas, adds at least a twenty-pound load to everyday life.
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 18, 2010 11:32:12 GMT -5
Superiority? What does that have to do with anything? Ever see a sick barn cat dying of an incurable disease? You know their condition. It is not well. They are suffering.
A sick cat is not an assumption.
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 18, 2010 11:41:11 GMT -5
True. Thank You. AMEN. I agree with this. But those two rabbits, I just could not. Yes. All this assumes a superiority(unfounded) toward all animals as if we know their condition. How in hell can we assume even this when we don't even know what we are!
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