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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 15:57:31 GMT -5
Very true Michael Like any practice, it should be part of a personal whole, not the entire pie
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 16:07:58 GMT -5
Great ZD I much prefer the mountains of the Nothwest than the East. The snow is lighter, weather no where near as harsh except the NW has stronger winds. I am hoping for not much snow as I need to hike around 4-5 miles to get to this cabin with 60 lbs on my back. I will be hunting for most of my food cooking on sterno stove and reading by candle light. I will have my laptop though with a connection through a satalite phone but the mins are extremely costly at 1$ a min but it will work anywhere as long as I am open to the sky. Enjoy your time be careful and safe Michael Cool. BTW, tomorrow I'm going to the mountains, too (Utah has received tons of new snow recently). There will be a bunch of us crazy non-dualists hiking, skiing, and wandering in the mountains at the same time. Whoopee!
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 16:34:42 GMT -5
It's not about how deep the rabbit hole is or whether one thinks one is as enlightened as possible. (There's already way too much thinking going on in that) It's also not about how much blood, sweat and tears some guru put into awakening because the point is that nothing that was ever done caused awakening to happen. Do you think the guru understood all this before he awakened?
I realize that lends itself to misinterpretation and so I'm not saying that whatever happens doesn't need to happen, just that nobody caused it or could have prevented it, and also that the only reason it needed to happen is because somebody thought it needed to happen.
That also lends itself to misinterpretation and so I say it's the belief that one is not already searching from the destination that makes it looks like there's somewhere to go. It's only the idea that something has to be noticed that isn't already obvious, that keeps one looking elsewhere. That's why I'm hacking away at these ideas.
Meditation practices are generally designed to control the thoughts, and yet the one thinking and one wanting to control the thoughts are the same, and so it's a little game the person plays with himself. In 30 or 40 years of meditating does it ever occur to the meditator that he's playing both sides of the game? Not if he thinks he getting somewhere.
That may lend itself to misinterpretation and so I'm not saying meditation doesn't have many benefits and is not necessary. I'm saying notice the game and you don't have to play anymore. If you really want to stop thinking, then your prayers have been answered even before you ask.
The notion that there is an actual void that somebody has to go through makes a nothing into a something and a person into a reality and dismisses the fact that, if you are in the void, it's not a void anymore. Meditate or do drugs with a friend and you can both go into this 'real' void together and it will be lot more fun. The alternative is to notice that it's just an idea that mind forms to terrorize itself into staying asleep. Yeah, that's what mind does.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 16:54:57 GMT -5
Well word are misleading I will end with this what you say makes perfect sense if you are still in your mind that in itself is what is misleading to you and makes you feel you are awaken. The absolute truth is you need to keep going and only when you have passed through what you need to and actually go beyond the mind and beyond consciousness to the absolute itself will you be able to honestly see it , yourself what you truly are and anything less than this is not it.
Ok nice chatting need to get ready for my retreat..
Peace Michael
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Post by m on Dec 3, 2010 17:03:29 GMT -5
We may know a part of what we know, we may even know that we don't know but how can we know what we don't know. Is there a limit in not-knowing ? Is there a relation between knowing, not-knowing and keeping on "seeking-giving" (I don't find any in my "going for it".) I hope you can get my point. I am not playing with word. i do my best with where I am. m
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 17:07:42 GMT -5
It's only from mind that meditation looks like it's getting you closer to Truth, and it's only from mind that the void looks like a real thingy you have to cross through and it's only through mind that the 'if you were only as enlightened as me you would understand' argument makes any sense.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2010 17:37:04 GMT -5
We may know a part of what we know, we may even know that we don't know but how can we know what we don't know. Is there a limit in not-knowing ? Is there a relation between knowing, not-knowing and keeping on "seeking-giving" (I don't find any in my "going for it".) I hope you can get my point. I am not playing with word. i do my best with where I am. m Well, remember that there are two kinds of knowing, body knowing and mind knowing. The Greeks used two different words for these kinds of knowing-- "gnossis" for body-knowing and "episteme" for mind-knowing. When we refer to not-knowing we are referring to direct knowing beyond the mind. If you put your hand on a hot stovetop, the body will jerk away and it/you will "know" that the stovetop is hot directly and non-conceptually through the body. If someone tells you that a stovetop is hot, you will "know" it is hot through the mind--through concepts transmitted through language. There is a big difference between these two types of knowing. Reality is perceived through the body (gnossis), directly and non-conceptually. The illusory world that most people perceive is a meta-reality created, maintained, and known (episteme) by mind--(through ideas, beliefs, images, etc.) Pure awareness is direct and unmediated by thought. We see "what is" beyond thought or language. It is non-verbal. If we see anything that appears to have boundaries, we are imagining. "A tree," for example, is a product of imagination. It is bounded. What a tree IS, and what the word "tree" points to, however, is infinite.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 18:19:31 GMT -5
Ok dam it I wish you stop with such inviting responses it's not easy to let you go!Enigma yes but not you and that is because you are closer than you think but lets not go there.
I wanted to ammend what you said in the above post about reality which I call the absolute. You can never precieve reality/absolute it's not possible. All you can do is write words that are formed from the mind through the brain and into written or spoken word. This is all still mind. If I ask you what is the absolute like no matter what you say is a lie and from the mind. The same with me but wait if all are lies then how can we be of any help. This is the mind asking this question. Why? because whatever is said is not the absolute it's a lie. The only way to know the absolute is to become the absolute(yes you already are the absolute but this comes from simply decducted reasoning using parameters that you have set up. What I am saying is when you become what you are in complete consciousness your body/mind will not be able to contain what is happening the results are anything but nice and you will remember this for your entire life and you can not avoid this if you keep pushing forward. Remember perception is from the mind a illusion but also remember illusions can drive you mad, they can and will hurt and can end the life of a body/mind illusion.
Ok I promised myself I really need to go now
please don't try to understand what I just wrote much better to read it and let it go.
Have fun ZD Michael
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Post by klaus on Dec 3, 2010 18:35:48 GMT -5
How about the notion that you are being meditated literally by THAT, since THAT is the meditator and meditation.
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 18:50:25 GMT -5
Ok dam it I wish you stop with such inviting responses it's not easy to let you go!Enigma yes but not you and that is because you are closer than you think but lets not go there. I wanted to ammend what you said in the above post about reality which I call the absolute. You can never precieve reality/absolute it's not possible. All you can do is write words that are formed from the mind through the brain and into written or spoken word. This is all still mind. If I ask you what is the absolute like no matter what you say is a lie and from the mind. The same with me but wait if all are lies then how can we be of any help. This is the mind asking this question. Why? because whatever is said is not the absolute it's a lie. The only way to know the absolute is to become the absolute(yes you already are the absolute but this comes from simply decducted reasoning using parameters that you have set up. What I am saying is when you become what you are in complete consciousness your body/mind will not be able to contain what is happening the results are anything but nice and you will remember this for your entire life and you can not avoid this if you keep pushing forward. Remember perception is from the mind a illusion but also remember illusions can drive you mad, they can and will hurt and can end the life of a body/mind illusion. Ok I promised myself I really need to go now please don't try to understand what I just wrote much better to read it and let it go. Have fun ZD Michael
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 18:56:23 GMT -5
How about the notion that you are being meditated literally by THAT, since THAT is the meditator and meditation. Even that notion collapses when God declares 'My form is actually mediated by God'. It's neither true nor false, it just collapses.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 20:01:14 GMT -5
Taking a break from packing it's a wild thing when you are going to the mountains and need to eat and survie for 10 days.I hope I have everything I need.
This is such a good thread hard to keep my eyes off it. "Even that notion collapses.."
Everything is a lie or collapses when it comes from a "person" The" person" was created by the mind using a process of identity which gives to us the idea we are people and separate. This is very much like creating a robot with AI. But there is a difference that is worlds apart from any kind of robot now or in the future. Somethings can become much too complicated to understand by words which come from our brain which comes from the mind. The difference is in These "robot" (being a person as is called) the absolute has planted a seed of awareness. It's the reason why we have a desire to find out who we are, where we came from, etc. Saying a "person" does not exist and is a illusion is no help at all on the journey home. In the absolute tense yes it's true but this is only realized by very few that have a body/mind. The whole reason for our creation by the absolute is for going back home. The reason why the absolute has done this is many but one reason is the absolute want to experience everyman's journey this is why the seed of awareness was planted.
It's just not possible the way a person is programed to just make a shortcut to the Absolute without the journey if it was there would be no point of the exercise. The absolute provided many different ways to get home. One way is being still, be still and know God, I am what I am, another way is through love in yoga it's Bhaki yoga and there are others. But this way of a janni(knowledge) involves every single emotion, thoughts , feelings everything that makes up a "person" and most people would never want this as they are tied to much to the identity. What most people on a spiritual path want is both the enjoyment of being a "person" and the journey completed.(cake and eat it too) So what I just wrote is very raw and rough but will give you a sense of what s happening when a "person" commits to and opts in on this path. The only debate here from this thread is can you achieve this with no fear,no pain,no emotions in less than a snap of your fingers or do you need to go through the ringer. I say ringer is it
Back to packing
Michael
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2010 20:16:43 GMT -5
Ok dam it I wish you stop with such inviting responses it's not easy to let you go!Enigma yes but not you and that is because you are closer than you think but lets not go there. I wanted to ammend what you said in the above post about reality which I call the absolute. You can never precieve reality/absolute it's not possible. All you can do is write words that are formed from the mind through the brain and into written or spoken word. This is all still mind. If I ask you what is the absolute like no matter what you say is a lie and from the mind. The same with me but wait if all are lies then how can we be of any help. This is the mind asking this question. Why? because whatever is said is not the absolute it's a lie. The only way to know the absolute is to become the absolute(yes you already are the absolute but this comes from simply decducted reasoning using parameters that you have set up. What I am saying is when you become what you are in complete consciousness your body/mind will not be able to contain what is happening the results are anything but nice and you will remember this for your entire life and you can not avoid this if you keep pushing forward. Remember perception is from the mind a illusion but also remember illusions can drive you mad, they can and will hurt and can end the life of a body/mind illusion. Ok I promised myself I really need to go now please don't try to understand what I just wrote much better to read it and let it go. Have fun ZD Michael E. You're killing me! I've got to learn about emoticons. I'm such a f***ing Luddite! I have nine messages waiting for me on Facebook, but I don't understand anything about Facebook. I can't even find "my wall" to write on it or get messages from it. Who are all these people trying to get in touch with me? How do I find them? Where are they? They must be in the ether somewhere. Okay, when I get back from skiing in Utah, I'm going to hire someone to set up my facebook profile with pictures and everything, and Im' going to find these faceless people, wherever they are. I've got to get with it, get linked in, get up to speed. No more laughingstock on the internet for me. No sireeeee. I've got to figure out how to do these emoticon-thingies for sure because they can capture exactly what I want to say without saying anything. That's almost non-conceptual! Michael, thanks. I'm definitely going to have some fun (unless I don't). I hope you have an equal amount of fun where you're going, even though the fun of a 60 pound backpack sounds somewhat oxymoronic. Cheers.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 3, 2010 21:14:03 GMT -5
michaelsees-
how does a spider not get tangled in its own web?
what can they do if said misfortune does happen?
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 21:30:30 GMT -5
Hey ZD you are so funny! First thing understand that once you join facebook anyone can page you to be their friend. The chances are maybe 1 of the 9 is someone you know. The rest are what I call collectors which are ego driven Facehookers that get off on how many friends they can have.
I was a member and then deleted my facebook account. You need to be careful with it. They developed a system where if you go to a website and it says you need to join as a member to go to read this or go to this page whatever you will find a Facebook window where it says login using your facebook account. The problem is it's so easy you don't need to create a user name or anything you just log in with your name and facebook password the real trouble with this is now everyone on that site that has a facebook account has been sent a invitation to be your friend or visa versa. This is how facebook grows so fast. The idea is never do this just go the longer route of creating a membership with whatever site you need to. It's one of the main reasons I opted out it doesn't take much time to get 10 or more emails a day from people you don't know want to hook up as a friend.
Alright need to go packing is done and your right it does sound oxymoronic with the backpack but once I get there I will be as light as a feather gliding across the snow! Have fun! Michael
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