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Post by michaelsees on Dec 2, 2010 23:26:07 GMT -5
I do not think it's that simple. It is simple if you just want to realize that you are not separate but this alone is not being fully awaken it's just the beginning.
I really do not know how to say this in a different way then I been saying for a week now. To fully awake there are things yes things that your body/brain must go through it's not just shifting over and there is no missing this. So far there is one member here that knows what I am talking about Iris though it be good if we had more on the forum. Again it's not a thing that you can come back to me and say well that may happen to some but it does not need to and I will say yes you do. I have a hold of some of Niz writings that have never been publish I got these from someone that knew Timothy Conway. I had to agree to never share this with anyone but I will tell you Niz went through a lot of shit when he woke up he came close to dying. The only one I know that was able to get away with this and did not have to go through this fire of testing was Ramana. I myself have not fully entered into this I know I am not ready but I have been close to it and it's not at all what you think it is and your body will fight every inch of it.
Michael
Sorry Klaus did not intend to steal your point it's to sharp to carry around ha ha
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Post by m on Dec 3, 2010 2:29:36 GMT -5
Indeed ! m E. You wrote, ""Yes, the longing and the sense of futility is good. The determination to get somewhere, accomplish something, not so good, and that has to burn itself out. One drops to a more subtle level where all this activity of trying to progress horizontally slows or stops, and there is perhaps a vertical movement, a subtle deepening that takes place exactly where you are standing. This comes out of the realization that the path can't lead anywhere and that you're not actually trying to get somewhere, just to notice what is already the case; where you already are. This slowing of the movement looks to mind like stagnation, since mind measures it's progress by detecting change, and yet change doesn't bring about Truth. All change is already happening IN Truth. The accomplishment of some 'no-mind' meditative practice, or the attainment of a mind state, is what mind is looking for as an indicator that it is getting closer to Truth, and yet there has been no movement at all that brings mind closer to Truth, or can take it farther away, and so nobody is more advanced on their spiritual path than another. That's not to say everybody is at the same 'level' of ignorance, it just means that mind isn't getting somewhere like Dorothy on the yellow brick road, it's dissolving in place like the wicked Witch of the West. Hehe." That is an extraordinarily clear explanation that should be posted on the wall of all meditation halls and non-duality chatrooms! Yes, we work like dogs (meditating, fasting, trying to stay present, etc) to get where we think we want to go, but nothing works. Eventually, we come to a stop with a puzzled look on our face. Hmmmmmmmmm? No matter what I do, I never seem to get any closer to the goal. Why would that be? Hmmmmmmmm? At some point, in the midst of our puzzlement, we stop and look around. Could it be this simple? Could what I'm looking for be here right now in this very spot, so close that I don't need to go anywhere or do anything? Hmmmmmmmmm. Could it even be simpler than that? Anyone who gets to this spot is getting very close to the fire that will ultimately burn up the illusion of separateness.
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 2:32:08 GMT -5
Yep. Hard-core meditators are a trip! I remember a guy, who had been meditating more than twenty years, telling some of us at a retreat center that he was going to spend a week in a cave above the retreat center and was going to fast the entire time. Why did he tell us this? Because it was a huge ego trip. He was saying, "Look at me. I am going to deny myself and do this difficult hardcore thing. Isn't that awesome?" At another time I heard a guy give a thirty-minute dharma talk about the "correct" way to hold one's thumbs in the cosmic mudra position while meditating. The thumbtips should "barely touch," and it was most important that the fingers of both hands overlap under the thumbs rather than interlock. There was hushed reverence as he delivered this critically important information. I'm so glad I was there that day; otherwise I might have done something wrong and missed my chance to get into heaven. Well, yeah, I mean how could interlocking thumbs ever lead to Self realization. Pffft!
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Post by m on Dec 3, 2010 2:35:29 GMT -5
ZD I know what you mean meditation can be used not to meditate. Dojo and temples are full up with people who get trapped in this at least for a while. But there is a meditation which is a gift to-from-& through the meditator. m Yep. Hard-core meditators are a trip! I remember a guy, who had been meditating more than twenty years, telling some of us at a retreat center that he was going to spend a week in a cave above the retreat center and was going to fast the entire time. Why did he tell us this? Because it was a huge ego trip. He was saying, "Look at me. I am going to deny myself and do this difficult hardcore thing. Isn't that awesome?" At another time I heard a guy give a thirty-minute dharma talk about the "correct" way to hold one's thumbs in the cosmic mudra position while meditating. The thumbtips should "barely touch," and it was most important that the fingers of both hands overlap under the thumbs rather than interlock. There was hushed reverence as he delivered this critically important information. I'm so glad I was there that day; otherwise I might have done something wrong and missed my chance to get into heaven.
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Post by m on Dec 3, 2010 2:41:19 GMT -5
As far as I can remember Ramana as well went through hard stuff. but who can tell except Ramana? Yes, on the path, the body-heart-mind may have to go through weird experience (to say the least). I have met some. But How can I tell it is a must ? How can I tell nobody on the path can escape this. m I do not think it's that simple. It is simple if you just want to realize that you are not separate but this alone is not being fully awaken it's just the beginning. I really do not know how to say this in a different way then I been saying for a week now. To fully awake there are things yes things that your body/brain must go through it's not just shifting over and there is no missing this. So far there is one member here that knows what I am talking about Iris though it be good if we had more on the forum. Again it's not a thing that you can come back to me and say well that may happen to some but it does not need to and I will say yes you do. I have a hold of some of Niz writings that have never been publish I got these from someone that knew Timothy Conway. I had to agree to never share this with anyone but I will tell you Niz went through a lot of nuts when he woke up he came close to dying. The only one I know that was able to get away with this and did not have to go through this fire of testing was Ramana. I myself have not fully entered into this I know I am not ready but I have been close to it and it's not at all what you think it is and your body will fight every inch of it. Michael Sorry Klaus did not intend to steal your point it's to sharp to carry around ha ha
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 2:48:56 GMT -5
I do not think it's that simple. It is simple if you just want to realize that you are not separate but this alone is not being fully awaken it's just the beginning. I really do not know how to say this in a different way then I been saying for a week now. To fully awake there are things yes things that your body/brain must go through it's not just shifting over and there is no missing this. So far there is one member here that knows what I am talking about Iris though it be good if we had more on the forum. Again it's not a thing that you can come back to me and say well that may happen to some but it does not need to and I will say yes you do. I have a hold of some of Niz writings that have never been publish I got these from someone that knew Timothy Conway. I had to agree to never share this with anyone but I will tell you Niz went through a lot of nuts when he woke up he came close to dying. The only one I know that was able to get away with this and did not have to go through this fire of testing was Ramana. I myself have not fully entered into this I know I am not ready but I have been close to it and it's not at all what you think it is and your body will fight every inch of it. Michael Sorry Klaus did not intend to steal your point it's to sharp to carry around ha ha There is a purification where a purification is needed. Nobody is talking about a walk in the park, but the certainty that everyone must go through what you imagine you must go through but have not yet, and in the same way that you have not, is just silly. All of these ideas about meditations and voids have boundaries just as all ideas do. The one who stubbed his toe in the middle of the night on the way to the bathroom and Awakened probably isn't going to be teaching about the drama of Awakening, so you wouldn't have any secret notes from him documenting his near death experience. If you can get your head straight about the illusory nature of all this stuff before hand, maybe you won't have to go "through a lot of nuts".
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Post by enigma on Dec 3, 2010 2:52:51 GMT -5
As far as I can remember Ramana as well went through hard stuff. but who can tell except Ramana? Yes, on the path, the body-heart-mind may have to go through weird experience (to say the least). I have met some. But How can I tell it is a must ? How can I tell nobody on the path can escape this. m Zackly. We can't know. Ramana and Niz couldn't know.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2010 3:47:44 GMT -5
As far as I can remember Ramana as well went through hard stuff. but who can tell except Ramana? Yes, on the path, the body-heart-mind may have to go through weird experience (to say the least). I have met some. But How can I tell it is a must ? How can I tell nobody on the path can escape this. m I do not think it's that simple. It is simple if you just want to realize that you are not separate but this alone is not being fully awaken it's just the beginning. I really do not know how to say this in a different way then I been saying for a week now. To fully awake there are things yes things that your body/brain must go through it's not just shifting over and there is no missing this. So far there is one member here that knows what I am talking about Iris though it be good if we had more on the forum. Again it's not a thing that you can come back to me and say well that may happen to some but it does not need to and I will say yes you do. I have a hold of some of Niz writings that have never been publish I got these from someone that knew Timothy Conway. I had to agree to never share this with anyone but I will tell you Niz went through a lot of nuts when he woke up he came close to dying. The only one I know that was able to get away with this and did not have to go through this fire of testing was Ramana. I myself have not fully entered into this I know I am not ready but I have been close to it and it's not at all what you think it is and your body will fight every inch of it. Michael Sorry Klaus did not intend to steal your point it's to sharp to carry around ha ha These are a lot of good ideas to get rid of. I'll tell you a secret. Neither Ramana nor Niz ever did any hard work. There is no fire of testing and the idea of not being ready is just an idea.
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Post by unveilable on Dec 3, 2010 6:25:54 GMT -5
Thank you both. Getting a bit verklempt now. E. You wrote, ""Yes, the longing and the sense of futility is good. The determination to get somewhere, accomplish something, not so good, and that has to burn itself out. One drops to a more subtle level where all this activity of trying to progress horizontally slows or stops, and there is perhaps a vertical movement, a subtle deepening that takes place exactly where you are standing. This comes out of the realization that the path can't lead anywhere and that you're not actually trying to get somewhere, just to notice what is already the case; where you already are. This slowing of the movement looks to mind like stagnation, since mind measures it's progress by detecting change, and yet change doesn't bring about Truth. All change is already happening IN Truth. The accomplishment of some 'no-mind' meditative practice, or the attainment of a mind state, is what mind is looking for as an indicator that it is getting closer to Truth, and yet there has been no movement at all that brings mind closer to Truth, or can take it farther away, and so nobody is more advanced on their spiritual path than another. That's not to say everybody is at the same 'level' of ignorance, it just means that mind isn't getting somewhere like Dorothy on the yellow brick road, it's dissolving in place like the wicked Witch of the West. Hehe." That is an extraordinarily clear explanation that should be posted on the wall of all meditation halls and non-duality chatrooms! Yes, we work like dogs (meditating, fasting, trying to stay present, etc) to get where we think we want to go, but nothing works. Eventually, we come to a stop with a puzzled look on our face. Hmmmmmmmmm? No matter what I do, I never seem to get any closer to the goal. Why would that be? Hmmmmmmmm? At some point, in the midst of our puzzlement, we stop and look around. Could it be this simple? Could what I'm looking for be here right now in this very spot, so close that I don't need to go anywhere or do anything? Hmmmmmmmmm. Could it even be simpler than that? Anyone who gets to this spot is getting very close to the fire that will ultimately burn up the illusion of separateness.
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Post by m on Dec 3, 2010 10:50:29 GMT -5
Zendancer, I do agree. I was just talking about the body-heart-mind. m As far as I can remember Ramana as well went through hard stuff. but who can tell except Ramana? Yes, on the path, the body-heart-mind may have to go through weird experience (to say the least). I have met some. But How can I tell it is a must ? How can I tell nobody on the path can escape this. m These are a lot of good ideas to get rid of. I'll tell you a secret. Neither Ramana nor Niz ever did any hard work. There is no fire of testing and the idea of not being ready is just an idea.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2010 12:55:58 GMT -5
Zendancer, I do agree. I was just talking about the body-heart-mind. m These are a lot of good ideas to get rid of. I'll tell you a secret. Neither Ramana nor Niz ever did any hard work. There is no fire of testing and the idea of not being ready is just an idea. Cool. BTW, tomorrow I'm going to the mountains, too (Utah has received tons of new snow recently). There will be a bunch of us crazy non-dualists hiking, skiing, and wandering in the mountains at the same time. Whoopee!
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 14:20:41 GMT -5
Well ZD and Enigma I very much disagree they are not just ideas and Niz did do a lot of hard work more than just spend 3 years with his guru and Ramana at 16 had it all handed to him but look at the rest of his life. My point is just because some(s) thinks it's not true and calls it a idea does not mean it is. You can say the same about me. I would rather error on my own experience and the experience of others that have made it fully than not. To each their own. Michael www.4shared.com/document/bzNKi20B/Autobiography_of_a_Jnani.htmlHere's just one account of a person awakening fully. Remember this person also had 12 years of kryia yoga, was very sincere as a Indiana and turned to advaita. It's a rare dialogue because it's from a master to his disciple covering every inch of his awakening with answers from the master to my knowledge nothing out there in any book gives you this info. www.4shared.com/document/bzNKi20B/Autobiography_of_a_Jnani.htmlmichael
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2010 15:00:00 GMT -5
Well ZD and Enigma I very much disagree they are not just ideas and Niz did do a lot of hard work more than just spend 3 years with his guru and Ramana at 16 had it all handed to him but look at the rest of his life. My point is just because some(s) thinks it's not true and calls it a idea does not mean it is. You can say the same about me. I would rather error on my own experience and the experience of others that have made it fully than not. To each their own. Michael www.4shared.com/document/bzNKi20B/Autobiography_of_a_Jnani.htmlHere's just one account of a person awakening fully. Remember this person also had 12 years of kryia yoga, was very sincere as a Indiana and turned to advaita. It's a rare dialogue because it's from a master to his disciple covering every inch of his awakening with answers from the master to my knowledge nothing out there in any book gives you this info. www.4shared.com/document/bzNKi20B/Autobiography_of_a_Jnani.htmlmichael What I'm saying is on two levels. First, having any kind of mental model of how one gets to enlightenment is nothing more than another good idea to get rid of. People wake up a thousand different ways. Each human being is unique and although we could talk about the possibilities probabalistically, that's all it would be. Some people wake up right out of the blue and some people search for fifty years to find the same thing. There is a famous dialogue in Korean Buddhism where some guy asked an enlightened family how hard it was to get enlightened. The father said, "Oh, it's extremely difficult." The mother said, "It's as easy as pie." The young daughter said, "To think 'easy' or 'difficult' is already a big mistake." Second, to paraphrase Tony Parsons in one of his funniest dialogues, "There is no Ramana or Nisargadatta." In the dialogue to which I am referring someone was contesting what Parsons had said about waking up by saying, "Well, Rumi said....." Parsons interrupted him very forcefully by yelling, "There is no Rumi!" IOW, there's nothing separate here. Having any idea about what one must do to get to where one already is, keeps one outside the temple, and prevents one from perceiving the wholeness that is always here and now. Lastly, why would I possibly care about what Niz did or didn't do or what someone THINKS he did or didn't do? As soon as you see the truth, you can throw away all of the holy books and all of the holy teachers. You walk the universe alone.
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Post by michaelsees on Dec 3, 2010 15:23:49 GMT -5
I do undersand ZD and you know I love your posts and I felt the exact same way. If your fulfiled and content and at peace that's wonderful why change, why would anyone change. The truth is you would not change. Just think about this what do you think is the possabily that what you see as truth is incomplete. Now to you it looks and feels complete but what if you would need to go a lot longer to find complete truth pressing on everyday with going into the stillness even though your awarenesss tells you that you are in the stillness already where is there to go frim here. My advice is to just sit down, be quiet and still close your eyes and see. It's all we can do and should do never stopping thinking we have seen the complete truth.
All I am saying we never know so we need to not assume that we have arrive and tell others that it's silly, or why listen throw the books out etc as we may be very incorrect since no one know what is at the end of the rabbit hole.
Peace see you in a few weeks going on a personal retreat by me self in the mountains brrrrrr
Michael
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Post by howtalk on Dec 3, 2010 15:47:39 GMT -5
I feel what is commonly thought of as meditation is fine as a tool, to be used at times along one's work. but it is just a tool. The toolbox we carry needs various tools, for what worked for one, may not be the best tool for us. Thus it is best to try many different things and see where you are.
Like any practice, it should be part of a personal whole, not the entire pie
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