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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2018 16:44:05 GMT -5
I know form my own experience that it works for physical pain. But I have my doubts about emotional pain. Can you elaborate how that works for grief, step by step? My experience is that emotional pain is not unlike physical pain. In fact, the breakup of a relationship, death of a spouse, the guilt of some accident one caused, etc, is often felt exactly like physical pain is, in the body, except it is usually located in the pit of the stomach (solar plexus). It can be just as intense, wave-like or constant, and debilitating as a broken rib, broken back or abscessed tooth. It is affected by the same laws as physical pain. If you resist, it persists. If made friends with (accepted as unavoidable) it follows its natural course of resolution. "Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?” Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.”
“Bring acceptance into your non-acceptance. Bring surrender into your non-surrender. Then see what happens.”
“Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and become comfortable not knowing.” ~ Eckhart Tolle You can codify pain this way, sure, and pain and suffering are related, but suffering is entangled with the existential question, "what suffers?". Is there any " law" that applies to what is pointed to by the idea of what you really are? The existential truth is simplicity itself, but the typical human being is anything but simple, and simple explanations of suffering essentially reduce what it means to be human to intellectually understandable, mechanistic terms. The mechanistic worldview is so intricately and deeply intertwined into European and American culture as to be mostly taken for granted, and profoundly so. Here's an example of how this translates into a practical notion: can you always tell, based on outward appearances, the difference between someone in a state of acceptance of emotional pain and someone internally cut off from their emotions?
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 16, 2018 17:13:09 GMT -5
My experience is that emotional pain is not unlike physical pain. In fact, the breakup of a relationship, death of a spouse, the guilt of some accident one caused, etc, is often felt exactly like physical pain is, in the body, except it is usually located in the pit of the stomach (solar plexus). It can be just as intense, wave-like or constant, and debilitating as a broken rib, broken back or abscessed tooth. It is affected by the same laws as physical pain. If you resist, it persists. If made friends with (accepted as unavoidable) it follows its natural course of resolution. "Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?” Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.”
“Bring acceptance into your non-acceptance. Bring surrender into your non-surrender. Then see what happens.”
“Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and become comfortable not knowing.” ~ Eckhart Tolle You can codify pain this way, sure, and pain and suffering are related, but suffering is entangled with the existential question, "what suffers?". Is there any " law" that applies to what is pointed to by the idea of what you really are? The existential truth is simplicity itself, but the typical human being is anything but simple, and simple explanations of suffering essentially reduce what it means to be human to intellectually understandable, mechanistic terms. The mechanistic worldview is so intricately and deeply intertwined into European and American culture as to be mostly taken for granted, and profoundly so. Here's an example of how this translates into a practical notion: can you always tell, based on outward appearances, the difference between someone in a state of acceptance of emotional pain and someone internally cut off from their emotions? It was a reference to the Eleventh Commandant... What is resisteth, persistith. And yes, it applies in all cases of pain, emotional or otherwise, from this POV anyway.
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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2018 17:42:45 GMT -5
You can codify pain this way, sure, and pain and suffering are related, but suffering is entangled with the existential question, "what suffers?". Is there any " law" that applies to what is pointed to by the idea of what you really are? The existential truth is simplicity itself, but the typical human being is anything but simple, and simple explanations of suffering essentially reduce what it means to be human to intellectually understandable, mechanistic terms. The mechanistic worldview is so intricately and deeply intertwined into European and American culture as to be mostly taken for granted, and profoundly so. Here's an example of how this translates into a practical notion: can you always tell, based on outward appearances, the difference between someone in a state of acceptance of emotional pain and someone internally cut off from their emotions?It was a reference to the Eleventh Commandant... What is resisteth, persistith. And yes, it applies in all cases of pain, emotional or otherwise, from this POV anyway.Commandments are for people peeps. For example, resisting a cold draft by insulating a gap puts an end to it for as long as the house is standing. What you really are is unbounded, and not subject to command. Do you mean this as the answer to that last question?
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 16, 2018 18:48:12 GMT -5
It was a reference to the Eleventh Commandant... What is resisteth, persistith. And yes, it applies in all cases of pain, emotional or otherwise, from this POV anyway.Commandments are for people peeps. For example, resisting a cold draft by insulating a gap puts an end to it for as long as the house is standing. What you really are is unbounded, and not subject to command. Do you mean this as the answer to that last question? People peeps are usually the ones who have a problem with (mental) resistance toward things like grief, and other forms of emotional pain. Meeting them outside the their direct experience isn't usually helpful so the reply to questions of resolution - such as zazeniac raised - is directed to the level of experience they appear at. No, sorry, I misread your comment as a question. I read it as can you codify pain this way? rather than the way you wrote it, i.e. You can codify pain this way... My bad :-(
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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2018 20:31:23 GMT -5
Commandments are for people peeps. For example, resisting a cold draft by insulating a gap puts an end to it for as long as the house is standing. What you really are is unbounded, and not subject to command. Do you mean this as the answer to that last question? People peeps are usually the ones who have a problem with (mental) resistance toward things like grief, and other forms of emotional pain. Meeting them outside the their direct experience isn't usually helpful so the reply to questions of resolution - such as zazeniac raised - is directed to the level of experience they appear at. No, sorry, I misread your comment as a question. I read it as can you codify pain this way? rather than the way you wrote it, i.e. You can codify pain this way... My bad :-( Allowance is a cliche for a reason, often good advice, and can be a sublime seed of a deft nondual pointing. What I notice out on the popular spiritual landscape generally though, is an over-simplification of the idea of suffering. Simplicity in pointing is imperative, but what I'm referring to isn't really pointing, but instead is a dualistic blueprint for for how pain leads to suffering. So instead of pointing the listener/reader away from conceptualization, they're instead invited to rest their minds on what is essentially a rational explanation for how it happens. And it's not that I don't see value in that in the right context, which to my eye is, essentially, an outline of a version of psychotherapy.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 16, 2018 21:40:36 GMT -5
People peeps are usually the ones who have a problem with (mental) resistance toward things like grief, and other forms of emotional pain. Meeting them outside the their direct experience isn't usually helpful so the reply to questions of resolution - such as zazeniac raised - is directed to the level of experience they appear at. No, sorry, I misread your comment as a question. I read it as can you codify pain this way? rather than the way you wrote it, i.e. You can codify pain this way... My bad :-( Allowance is a cliche for a reason, often good advice, and can be a sublime seed of a deft nondual pointing. What I notice out on the popular spiritual landscape generally though, is an over-simplification of the idea of suffering. Simplicity in pointing is imperative, but what I'm referring to isn't really pointing, but instead is a dualistic blueprint for for how pain leads to suffering. So instead of pointing the listener/reader away from conceptualization, they're instead invited to rest their minds on what is essentially a rational explanation for how it happens.And it's not that I don't see value in that in the right context, which to my eye is, essentially, an outline of a version of psychotherapy. Yes, but that is another thing that just happens. And yes, suffering can be made into a perversion of sorts. Some of the Catholics in my own background, and with whom I've been exposed too, were quite expert in the craft of suffering for heaven's sake. :-)
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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2018 22:31:23 GMT -5
Allowance is a cliche for a reason, often good advice, and can be a sublime seed of a deft nondual pointing. What I notice out on the popular spiritual landscape generally though, is an over-simplification of the idea of suffering. Simplicity in pointing is imperative, but what I'm referring to isn't really pointing, but instead is a dualistic blueprint for for how pain leads to suffering. So instead of pointing the listener/reader away from conceptualization, they're instead invited to rest their minds on what is essentially a rational explanation for how it happens.And it's not that I don't see value in that in the right context, which to my eye is, essentially, an outline of a version of psychotherapy. Yes, but that is another thing that just happens. And yes, suffering can be made into a perversion of sorts. Some of the Catholics in my own background, and with whom I've been exposed too, were quite expert in the craft of suffering for heaven's sake. :-) Oh, ok sure .. .. but that's the flip side of the coin I was commenting on. Explaining the suffering on intellectual ground in terms of pain and resistance is telling the afflicted person that there's a material way out of their suffering and that it's unnecessary. It's true that the suffering is unnecessary, but not always so in the personal, relative, context when someone is identified with form, and disidentifying with form is very easily said, but there's no magic bullet. And the Catholics don't have a monopoly on "suffering for heavens sake". I've overheard more than one nondual presenter/speaker talk about how great a teacher suffering can be. Even Tolle, for instance. I don't dispute the merit at the core of that idea .. that's what I was alluding to here ... but the difference between Tolle and some of those others is the skill of his pointing. Tolle is subtle and gentle and comes off as far from callous to the pain of the individual. I understand some of the others with a more blunt bottom-line and don't disagree with that bottom line. But I can also see how a careless presentation might just cause more pain in the short term in some instances. The usefulness of pointing out to a person how they're creating their own misery is just one particular instance of inviting them to become conscious of the content of their mind.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2018 9:20:27 GMT -5
I know form my own experience that it works for physical pain. But I have my doubts about emotional pain. Can you elaborate how that works for grief, step by step? My experience is that emotional pain is not unlike physical pain. In fact, the breakup of a relationship, death of a spouse, the guilt of some accident one caused, etc, is often felt exactly like physical pain is, in the body, except it is usually located in the pit of the stomach (solar plexus). It can be just as intense, wave-like or constant, and debilitating as a broken rib, broken back or abscessed tooth. It is affected by the same laws as physical pain. If you resist, it persists. If made friends with (accepted as unavoidable) it follows its natural course of resolution. "Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?” Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.”
“Bring acceptance into your non-acceptance. Bring surrender into your non-surrender. Then see what happens.”
“Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and become comfortable not knowing.” ~ Eckhart Tolle That's what I find questionable because at the basis of emotional pain is a bogus thought/belief. And so you have LOA working against you there. Relaxing into grief sounds absurd. Physical pain is different.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2018 10:15:11 GMT -5
The 'no pain no gain' philosophy is deeply ingrained in our culture. It basically is a worthiness issue. Yes, I see your point, it's definitely one worth making. A-H would say that no exercise is required in order to get in shape and build muscles. All that is required is belief and expectation. So what the exercise actually does is gradually (and sometimes painfully) change our beliefs and expectation. If the exercise is done from a place of motivation, then it is indeed the hard way of going about it. If the exercise is done from a place of inspiration, then you can get results with such ease that defies any (conventional) logic. Right, I don't have an issue shifting perspective to abandon the notion of physical causality ... but for the most part, the appearance of a physical result will correlate with an appearance of physical effort, and anyone who expects to bodybuild by thought alone is unlikely to succeed. Actually, studies have shown that mind exercises can give the same results as physical exercises.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2018 10:29:20 GMT -5
The 'no pain no gain' philosophy is deeply ingrained in our culture. It basically is a worthiness issue. A-H would say that no exercise is required in order to get in shape and build muscles. All that is required is belief and expectation. So what the exercise actually does is gradually (and sometimes painfully) change our beliefs and expectation. If the exercise is done from a place of motivation, then it is indeed the hard way of going about it. If the exercise is done from a place of inspiration, then you can get results with such ease that defies any (conventional) logic. Yes, I have found that much of the training is creating the psychological profile of an athlete through the mind/body connection, and good musculature is really a byproduct of direct conscious awareness of the sensation in the body as one exercises. The issue is, the movement which entails the stretch and contraction of the muscle is that sensation which alters ones psychological profile through conscious awareness of it. If a person was very well formed in that mindful way, I don't actually see how the body would know the difference between the mentality of it and the actual practice of the exercise - hence the body would adapt to the 'neural map' without actually lifting a weight. But, it's also true that suc neural mapping is cultivated through the conscious awareness of the sensation as one lifts - so this would make lifting necessary. There is also a disconnect between lifting to get big muscles and lifting for the sake of expressing physical strength, which adds another layer of complexity to it, and lifting for an aesthetic consequence is quite different to lifting for the mere sake of lifting heavy as weights. I tell you, though, if a person is spiritually inclined, there is nothing so truthful as a barbell. You may be interested in Henry Rollins essay called 'Iron and the soul'.I like the voice in the video, too. There have been a lot of studies in that area (physical training vs. mental training). It basically boils down to self-image in the end. Seth recommended the book Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz to Rob and Jane. In that book Maltz describes how this all works. Interestingly, what Maltz teaches is basically identical with what A-H teach.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 19, 2018 10:34:18 GMT -5
My experience is that emotional pain is not unlike physical pain. In fact, the breakup of a relationship, death of a spouse, the guilt of some accident one caused, etc, is often felt exactly like physical pain is, in the body, except it is usually located in the pit of the stomach (solar plexus). It can be just as intense, wave-like or constant, and debilitating as a broken rib, broken back or abscessed tooth. It is affected by the same laws as physical pain. If you resist, it persists. If made friends with (accepted as unavoidable) it follows its natural course of resolution. "Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?” Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.”
“Bring acceptance into your non-acceptance. Bring surrender into your non-surrender. Then see what happens.”
“Sometimes surrender means giving up trying to understand and become comfortable not knowing.” ~ Eckhart Tolle That's what I find questionable because at the basis of emotional pain is a bogus thought/belief. And so you have LOA working against you there. Relaxing into grief sounds absurd. Physical pain is different. Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2018 11:21:24 GMT -5
That's what I find questionable because at the basis of emotional pain is a bogus thought/belief. And so you have LOA working against you there. Relaxing into grief sounds absurd. Physical pain is different. Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible. By physical pain I mean just physical pain like stubbing your toe. What you are talking about is emotional pain that eventually turns into physical pain. Two very different things.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 19, 2018 11:49:49 GMT -5
Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible. By physical pain I mean just physical pain like stubbing your toe. What you are talking about is emotional pain that eventually turns into physical pain. Two very different things. No, that isn't what I'm talking about.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 19, 2018 12:04:41 GMT -5
Children know the sensation/pain that a cruel or unkind word hurled at them can cause. It can feel as painful as being hit with a fist. Perhaps you've never experienced such a thing. I suppose that's possible. By physical pain I mean just physical pain like stubbing your toe. What you are talking about is emotional pain that eventually turns into physical pain. Two very different things. I'm going to have to agree with justlikeyou. There is emotional pain/suffering/psychological pain that is worse than physical pain. Much of the world ~revolves~ around this kind of "pain", the arts which mirrors the world, TV, film, novels. And all this is centered on the self, the kind of self we-are. Most here have probably heard about the children who were recently freed from the captivity of their parents, 13 children and adults I think it was, the oldest 29. Unimaginable. (Chained, malnourished, not allowed to go to a toilet, watched parents eating pie and cake, got a bath once a year). I heard last night that the girl who notified authorities planned her escape for two years. The physical wounds of those children will eventually heal. The psychological wounds may never heal. Some people kill themselves because it seems they can escape angst in no other way. (Angst, although "psychological", is exceptionally painful and debilitating). "You are the world". J Krishnamurti
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 19, 2018 12:05:56 GMT -5
By physical pain I mean just physical pain like stubbing your toe. What you are talking about is emotional pain that eventually turns into physical pain. Two very different things. No, that isn't what I'm talking about. See post above.
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