Hello

[menno]

Hi All,

I just stumbled upon this great site so I introduce myself.
There is not any value to add information about my story because that is a story. Am "I " the owner of "my" story? Was it "my" story really?
I don't know.

[zendancer]

Menno: Your story is just a story, but most of us love stories. What's yours?

[michaelsees]

Hi Menno,

I love this guy. what I love most about him is he smokes and drinks.
I also smoke but I am not really a drinker. There is a lot of unsaid judgments in this community about such things and in truth none of this ever matter. I would only matter to a "purest" but not about the truth. There actually are quite a few followers of this path in Europe that smoke. It's only in the US that people get real smug about it and look at you like your disgusting.
So good for you Menno welcome

peace
michael

Sept 6, 2010 9:32:45 GMT -5 @menno said:

Hi Zendancer,

Ah well I understand your reply so here's my story then.
I always wanted to get "back" to previous childhood joy explosions. For me then as kid it was clear and part of childhood as many kids have these types of natural views.
That was my fuel for my search. When these 'previews happened I made myself the promise to commit my life to this, to get this "back" It was as if I was lifted out my kids dream a bit much, and showed what it would be and resistance would be futile. So there I was with "this" knowing by my guts and heart which felt right and natural. How strange and wonderful and thanks to some children books such as Alice in Wonderland and some other similar Dutch children books that shake me up. So that was my "fuel" part, needed for the search. And so around my 23th or so I felt the urge of finding some guidance and in '82 I met Wolter Keers who was able to mirror Me. Finally some one who confirmed my seat (it impossible to describe these 'events').
And after that period I needed to digest and allow to embed it.
So all in time.

greets

www.stillnessspeaks.com/Wolter_Keers
www.youtube.com/user/You2oeb?feature=mhum#g/c/69DE6FEB4337ABDC

[menno]

Hello Michael,
Exactly he was very human and also not. But then it was around 1982. And he just loved the cigarettes and black strong coffee and good French wines. During that time these meetings just were named meetings or talks, and now the last 20 years suddenly a simple meeting is named a satsang.
Take care for the body can be healthy nothing wrong with that and sometimes it may calm down body and mind a bit as for a start. But also there is nothing wrong with smoking or other unhealthy habits.
There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so a very know English play writer wrote.
I? smoke, drink sometimes and bike, but hey I don't drive any car or use a car . However I don't move an inch while all is effortless moving in me which is amazing.
Greets
Menno

Sept 6, 2010 12:42:14 GMT -5 @michaelsees said:

Hi Menno,

I love this guy. what I love most about him is he smokes and drinks.
I also smoke but I am not really a drinker. There is a lot of unsaid judgments in this community about such things and in truth none of this ever matter. I would only matter to a "purest" but not about the truth. There actually are quite a few followers of this path in Europe that smoke. It's only in the US that people get real smug about it and look at you like your disgusting.
So good for you Menno welcome

peace
michael

Sept 6, 2010 9:32:45 GMT -5 @menno said:

www.stillnessspeaks.com/Wolter_Keers
www.youtube.com/user/You2oeb?feature=mhum#g/c/69DE6FEB4337ABDC

[oneiopen]

Hmm...I think I read somewhere (in a David Godman interview about Nisargadatta, I believe) that Wolter Keers was always yelled at by Maharaj whenever he appeared in Bombay to visit. It appears that Maharaj thought he was a pretender, someone who wasn't enlightened and therefore had no right to teach in the West. In fact, Nisargadatta was quite scathing in his view of Keers.

[michaelsees]

Nis had a temper and the list of people he yelled at was long. I certainly would not jump to the conclusion that Nis got upset with him because he was a fake. Who knows why Nis would get upset.
I have all his old videos and you see the guy getting pissed off at whats seems to be nothing. You can tell every time he gets good and pissed he goes for another beedie(smoke)

One should never judge a person's awakening by the external.
Some of the most awake people I have had the pleasure to meet were full on drinkers.

peace
michael

Sept 6, 2010 17:17:28 GMT -5 @oneiopen said:

Hmm...I think I read somewhere (in a David Godman interview about Nisargadatta, I believe) that Wolter Keers was always yelled at by Maharaj whenever he appeared in Bombay to visit. It appears that Maharaj thought he was a pretender, someone who wasn't enlightened and therefore had no right to teach in the West. In fact, Nisargadatta was quite scathing in his view of Keers.

[oneiopen]

Actually, I just took the time to check out the interview with David Godman again and it does appear as if Nisargadatta was angry at Wolter Keers because he was teaching but not enlightened. You can read it yourself on David's website.

[menno]

Sept 6, 2010 17:17:28 GMT -5 @oneiopen said:

Hmm...I think I read somewhere (in a David Godman interview about Nisargadatta, I believe) that Wolter Keers was always yelled at by Maharaj whenever he appeared in Bombay to visit. It appears that Maharaj thought he was a pretender, someone who wasn't enlightened and therefore had no right to teach in the West. In fact, Nisargadatta was quite scathing in his view of Keers.

Yes, and that is a compliment. I listened to the original tape with Wolter and the mistranslations of Mullarpattan, he liked to add sometimes more his information instead to translate correctly. David Godman interviews are a bit colored, he is a collector of information. I asked David why he was incorrect in these types of stories. He apologized and asked me if i could tell more as he was curious to get more information.
In this example there was an argument about 'relation' between the witness, deep dreamless sleep and the absolute.
It is how things are said in what context and to who, and then during that recording there was the disadvantage of that translator.
Later NIS noticed that some translations went wrong and he send his translator away/replaced him.

[menno]

Sept 6, 2010 18:06:10 GMT -5 @oneiopen said:

Actually, I just took the time to check out the interview with David Godman again and it does appear as if Nisargadatta was angry at Wolter Keers because he was teaching but not enlightened. You can read it yourself on David's website.

sorry 1iopen, I did not noticed your 2nd reply.
He never was enlightened of course ! Enlightenment is a concept an idea, and a cloud is also a concept an idea that comes and goes. Look around you and feel your body and see what you see and follow the idea's that occurs, all descriptions placed in time and space this here that there names labels concepts.
There are many stories in story land and sometime some people put these on websites because they like to spread stories. People love stories, so we have story collectors and readers, it is like the marketplace demand and supply. Don't pay attention to what happens but to whom it is happening. People love to talk about if somebody is enlightened or not, and by doing so they do miss the whole point. A person never can become enlightened.

[oneiopen]

No, menno, I have not missed the point. I question your veracity, not David Godman's. You don't need to teach me----I have a pretty good understanding of non-duality.

[menno]

1iopen I read your post and understand your post as your assumption. You posted about a interview and peoples conclusions, not me. So I respond to your posts based on what I know. But if you know more about that tape and that situation and related people let me know.

No, menno, I have not missed the point. I question your veracity, not David Godman's. You don't need to teach me----I have a pretty good understanding of non-duality.

Actually, I just took the time to check out the interview with David Godman again and it does appear as if Nisargadatta was angry at Wolter Keers because he was teaching but not enlightened. You can read it yourself on David's website.

sorry 1iopen, I did not noticed your 2nd reply.
He never was enlightened of course ! Enlightenment is a concept an idea, and a cloud is also a concept an idea that comes and goes. Look around you and feel your body and see what you see and follow the idea's that occurs, all descriptions placed in time and space this here that there names labels concepts. There are many stories in story land and sometime some people put these on websites because they like to spread stories. People love stories, so we have story collectors and readers, it is like the marketplace demand and supply. Don't pay attention to what happens but to whom it is happening. People love to talk about if somebody is enlightened or not, and by doing so they do miss the whole point. A person never can become enlightened.

Hmm...I think I read that Wolter Keers was always yelled at by Maharaj whenever he appeared in Bombay to visit. It appears that Maharaj thought he was a pretender, someone who wasn't enlightened and therefore had no right to teach in the West. In fact, Nisargadatta was quite scathing in his view of Keers.

Yes, and that is a compliment. I listened to the original tape with Wolter and the mistranslations of Mullarpattan, he liked to add sometimes more his information instead to translate correctly. David Godman interviews are a bit colored, he is a collector of information. I asked David why he was incorrect in these types of stories. He apologized and asked me if i could tell more as he was curious to get more information. In this example there was an argument about 'relation' between the witness, deep dreamless sleep and the absolute. It is how things are said in what context and to who, and then during that recording there was the disadvantage of that translator. Later NIS noticed that some translations went wrong and he send his translator away/replaced him.

[michaelsees]

Lets set the record straight if we can Nis had a very bad temper however if he spent that kind of time on someone you can bet there was good reason. It would never be something that has to do with the world and going out to teach. It was for Wolter edification only.

The other thing you need to realize is Nis never wrote any books. He would be lucky to pass our 6 grade grammar tests. Everything was first taken from his talks which gives you the first clue to misunderstandings. They are taken not live but from recordings and if the person translating is not there evrytime Nis would say something then things would be missed. Jean Dunn translated most of Nis talks . What you need to understand here is the edit function. You know how they shoot movie? It is not shot linear but in many pieces. The may shoot shots that are near the end of the movie during the first week of filming. When they get down you end up with nothing but pieces off film with all differnt shots. It would make no sense at all if they just linked everything togother and played it. So a editor comes in and his/her's only job is to connect and assemble the correct pieces so the movie makes sense.
It's the same way with translators not just Nis most of your Guru's/teacher never wrote a book in their life. Osho as brillent as he was never wrote a single book eveything came from his talks.

So at the end of the day you are counting on the editor to arranged to talks after they have been translated into something that makes sense when you read it. Can you see how easy it is to make errors. I mean ton's of errors can be made if the people who are editing were not there for the actual talks that they are now editing.

Ths is why I do not trust these kinds of books very much. It's way to easy to get a wrong meaning from something and worst yet someone will take one wrong meaning in only a sentence or 2 and go on their little crusade telling everyone that Nis really said this you can read it here.

You really want to learn from these guys you own it to yourself to go plant your butt down in from of them and just listen. It's the only way. Books can only help after you have been with some awaken teachers already not before.

peace

[menno]

There was a very good reason I will not mention it again. I don't want to feed the crusaders on this forum. Indeed, most people who were not there during that meeting have some opinion about that dispute. And that is true what you say that by these ways of reading, opinion making is making over hours and too easy and it totally makes an intellectual understanding in favor of ego’s crusades.
Greetz

Sept 8, 2010 9:54:25 GMT -5 @michaelsees said:

Lets set the record straight if we can Nis had a very bad temper however if he spent that kind of time on someone you can bet there was good reason. It would never be something that has to do with the world and going out to teach. It was for Wolter edification only.

This is why I do not trust these kinds of books very much. It's way to easy to get a wrong meaning from something and worst yet someone will take one wrong meaning in only a sentence or 2 and go on their little crusade telling everyone that Nis really said this you can read it here.

You really want to learn from these guys you own it to yourself to go plant your butt down in from of them and just listen. It's the only way. Books can only help after you have been with some awaken teachers already not before.

peace

[oneiopen]

From David Godman's website -- www.davidgodman.org/interviews/nis1.shtml

"Maharaj could be quite scathing about people who claimed to be enlightened, but who weren't. Wolter Keers, a Dutch advaita teacher, was someone who fell into that category. Every so often he would come to Bombay to see Maharaj, and on every visit Maharaj would tell him off for claiming to be enlightened when he wasn't. On one visit he started lecturing Wolter before he had even properly entered the room. There was a wooden stairway that led directly into the room where Maharaj taught. As Wolter's head appeared above the top step, Maharaj suspended his other business and started laying into him.

'You are not enlightened! How dare you teach in the West, claiming that you are enlightened?'

On one of my other visits Wolter was due to arrive and Maharaj kept asking when he was going to appear.

'Where is he? I want to shout at him again. When is he going to arrive?'

On that particular visit I had to leave before Wolter came so I don't know what form the lecture took, but I suspect that it was a typically hot one."


For clarity, this is not from a book or tape, but from David Godman's direct experience as recorded in this interview on his website. Peace to all.

[menno]

Ah clarity yes of course, looks more as if you are in need for a cross for your crusade, in these regions there is no peace at all. But well I will supply you with nails other time.

Sept 8, 2010 15:36:18 GMT -5 @oneiopen said:

For clarity, this is not from a book or tape, but from David Godman's direct experience as recorded in this interview on his website. Peace to all.
From David Godman's website -- www.davidgodman.org/interviews/nis1.shtml

"Maharaj could be quite scathing about people who claimed to be enlightened, but who weren't. Wolter Keers, a Dutch advaita teacher, was someone who fell into that category. Every so often he would come to Bombay to see Maharaj, and on every visit Maharaj would tell him off for claiming to be enlightened when he wasn't. On one visit he started lecturing Wolter before he had even properly entered the room. There was a wooden stairway that led directly into the room where Maharaj taught. As Wolter's head appeared above the top step, Maharaj suspended his other business and started laying into him.
'You are not enlightened! How dare you teach in the West, claiming that you are enlightened?' On one of my other visits Wolter was due to arrive and Maharaj kept asking when he was going to appear. 'Where is he? I want to shout at him again. When is he going to arrive?' On that particular visit I had to leave before Wolter came so I don't know what form the lecture took, but I suspect that it was a typically hot one."