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Post by loverofall on Jul 19, 2010 12:15:01 GMT -5
Finally had some clarity where the perception of this person is just another object in the awareness.
Best way to explain it is the movie screen analogy.
The movie screen just doesn't show what is seen and heard but also what is touched, tasted and smelled along with emotions and thoughts too. Just like in the Matrix where the dream Neal is another object in the virtual reality world. But when Neal wakes up from the Matrix he thinks he is out. The he that is free of the Matrix is another perception inside his awareness.
We give like Enigma said interest to this character and other thougths. Once we see that the character is no different than a thought or a sensation on my foot, or an emotion of fear or the piece of garbage on the floor, things are never going to be the same. I am just another perception in this movie.
I'll just end up saying the all that same stuff that we have read. What really helped was where the interest is focused. Seeing everything as equal in the field of perception. Identifying with awareness and just keep coming back to that awareness was here before this person and when thought stops so does the dream person cease to exist.
I think all the meditation, contemplation, emotional work and nonconceptual awareness is about weakening interest in the dream character enough to see everything is the same.
Makes sense?
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Post by desertrain on Jul 19, 2010 12:53:11 GMT -5
Yes, it does make sense, if only as an idea. I don't actually have any direct experience of it yet, but it's a nice and simple analogy. I've seen it used by several teachers, David Scoma for example talks about it here.
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Post by peanut on Jul 19, 2010 13:58:32 GMT -5
Makes sense to this dream character! lol Seriously was given a lot of help by robert about viewing my day as movie and wow was that ever freeing. Had been explained to me before, numerous times, but guess now i was ready to grok it. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by loverofall on Jul 19, 2010 15:55:50 GMT -5
Yes, it does make sense, if only as an idea. I don't actually have any direct experience of it yet, but it's a nice and simple analogy. I've seen it used by several teachers, David Scoma for example talks about it here. Thanks for the link. That helped. The movie explanation works well if you step back and see that your watching the movie of yourself watching the movie and interacting with the movie. Your just thinking you are watching the movie 1st person when the 1st person is actually part of the imagination. Your name, your memories and all thoughts and feelings about your character are just as imaginary and the same as every other object in the movie. I listen to people talk and I can see how they believe they are really that story of who they are. Thier interest is focused on their character in the story because the story is perceived through the character's mind and body and its interaction with the movie. It also is seen how all of this happens in here and not out there. The world is in us and we are not in the world type thing. Anything happening out there is of course experienced in here. How do we know here is not just in the mind? That must be a deeper realization than this.
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dei
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Post by dei on Jul 19, 2010 19:49:34 GMT -5
Wonderful, Lover. Reminds me of the picture you (and Karen) posted showing Awareness as is generally experienced, and as true Awareness. I'm gonna try the movie idea... anything that stops the mind is fun.
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Post by loverofall on Jul 19, 2010 21:03:42 GMT -5
That picture was on of the most helpful pointers for me. I still have it on the wall.
I left out that the other practice lately I was relentless with was questioning any thought or feeling as often as I remembered. Anything to drive the point of this person does not exist home. Is that true and where is this person that is feeling or thinking this are the most effective for this mind.
Also directing attention to the very things that would be avoided helps. Pay attention to what I used to ignore and avoid attention to what was attracted. Uncondition the mind.
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dei
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Post by dei on Jul 20, 2010 20:58:14 GMT -5
That picture resonated for me... for one brief moment a year ago, i was in Awareness with no reference point... which the mind immediately had to label and analyze. heh Your practice sounds much like my current one too... every sensation, feeling, thought, perception is up for question... and i find them all to be empty... i'm at the point of finding consciousness itself to be empty... gotta admit this is pretty much only in meditation and at the odd moments which are my "stolen meditations." I'll meet you at Rumi's field.
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Post by loverofall on Jul 22, 2010 9:09:39 GMT -5
Its funny how our interest gets back to the character. The rest of our world except for friend or this board is pulling the interest to the world of illusion. To steal more moments of mediation, do you put up reminders (notes, pictures, etc) around to wake you up more?
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dei
Junior Member
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Post by dei on Jul 22, 2010 12:17:01 GMT -5
It really IS so funny how attention/interest is drawn to that illusory 'me' or the habit of thinking i'm me. I really wonder what it is like to be Awareness all the time... (yeah yeah i know i know i already AM awareness all the time, thanks zd, you needn't say it *lol*)
I don't put up reminders... but looking out my window at the woods is a wake up call any time of the day... or letting the dogs out... or (oddly) fast forwarding the dvr... what is it about that? that i'm not actually watching or being absorbed in a program, but must be alert for the next instance of the show? Sometimes i've tried just fast forwarding for a four hour movie but without the attention looking for something, it doesn't work. I also find sewing to be a form of meditation... so much of it is mechanical... the hands pin and cut... the sewing machine does the actual sewing... i'm not needed at all. *lol* Thus my stolen meditations.
What do you do?
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Post by loverofall on Jul 22, 2010 14:51:23 GMT -5
Sticky notes like ZD talked about. My latest pointer is very simple.
Pay attention.
The sticker over the speedometer and computer are the best two places. A picture on my cell phone helps that causes pauses.
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dei
Junior Member
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Post by dei on Jul 23, 2010 12:59:51 GMT -5
Heh... felt called upon to share this from my "inner guru" a few months ago:
"Don't pay attention. Let attention pay you."
I have no idea what it means, if anything, but i see it now as a call to effortlessness. Today's suggestion from inner guru: "Just see what's there." and later a correction: "Don't LOOK, just SEE." It's a bit like Papaji's "Wait and see" which is helpful to me too.
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Post by vacant on Jul 24, 2010 5:14:09 GMT -5
Heh... felt called upon to share this from my "inner guru" a few months ago: "Don't pay attention. Let attention pay you." Funny way to put it, but very relevant for me. When under the illusion of being disconnected, I can try & try to join back by paying attention but it's all topsy-turvy and seems like there's nothing of substance to pay attention to... but when Awareness generously shines It's grace, all I have to do and all I can do is seeing and letting It pay attention! (and enjoy) Kind of like if you try to catch your shadow it elusively runs away, but turn around and face the sun and you couldn't keep the shadow from following you.
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allen
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Post by allen on Jul 24, 2010 8:28:07 GMT -5
very interesting conversation...guess I am in the right place today... just a few thoughts, the truth of the universe is always available for direct knowing (no special mystery here) all the beauty, mystery, awareness and the rest is found within the dream of delusion. Awakening is in no way an incremental process. More like a light switch, on or off, no middle ground...this work isn't climbing a ladder...its jumping off a cliff
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Post by unveilable on Jul 24, 2010 9:04:46 GMT -5
Hi Allen, Maybe it takes on the appearance of a process as long as we are a time bound self? Ive heard so many conflicting pointers on this that it seems to me that in some way it must be both a process and not a process. Kind of like 'it is a process until it isnt'. Is it not a process because every time we believe that there is a process we are really re-identifying with an individual me that process happens to? very interesting conversation...guess I am in the right place today... just a few thoughts, the truth of the universe is always available for direct knowing (no special mystery here) all the beauty, mystery, awareness and the rest is found within the dream of delusion. Awakening is in no way an incremental process. More like a light switch, on or off, no middle ground...this work isn't climbing a ladder...its jumping off a cliff
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allen
New Member
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Post by allen on Jul 24, 2010 10:24:27 GMT -5
Hi Allen, Maybe it takes on the appearance of a process as long as we are a time bound self? Ive heard so many conflicting pointers on this that it seems to me that in some way it must be both a process and not a process. Kind of like 'it is a process until it isnt'. Is it not a process because every time we believe that there is a process we are really re-identifying with an individual me that process happens to? very interesting conversation...guess I am in the right place today... just a few thoughts, the truth of the universe is always available for direct knowing (no special mystery here) all the beauty, mystery, awareness and the rest is found within the dream of delusion. Awakening is in no way an incremental process. More like a light switch, on or off, no middle ground...this work isn't climbing a ladder...its jumping off a cliff true - good point very confusing indeed...I have seen the term "ripening" but even that term is full of implied progress, maybe "rotten-ing" is better, the decay of the self...I also like "rotten-ing" because so much of the shift is out of your control
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