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Post by vacant on Jul 24, 2010 12:10:31 GMT -5
very interesting conversation...guess I am in the right place today... just a few thoughts, the truth of the universe is always available for direct knowing (no special mystery here) all the beauty, mystery, awareness and the rest is found within the dream of delusion. Awakening is in no way an incremental process. More like a light switch, on or off, no middle ground...this work isn't climbing a ladder...its jumping off a cliff Touché! It seemed from here that there was some kind of progress going on. So much for that i guess. Onward... |
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Post by peanut on Jul 24, 2010 16:47:58 GMT -5
Hi..think it ok to say it is a process.. we can get so caught up in words...i, see there is no i, but have to talk lol find notes helpful as well as checking my watch and touching my necklace. i am not in the same space i was a few years ago..there have been insights that have helped me grow and see more deeply so in that sense it is a process. In the beginning for example i couldn't separate and watch myself. Now that occurs. Or i couldn't get a non-conceptual practice. So for me it is a journey up the mountain and we all take a different path. Happy trails!
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dei
Junior Member
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Post by dei on Jul 24, 2010 16:55:29 GMT -5
Although everything i've read (here and elsewhere) certainly suggests awakening is an event rather than a process... i wonder if it might be different in different people... just like waking up from sleeping is different... for me that is a process for sure... takes me hours to finally wake up and get out of bed, while others just boop! wake up and hop to it. Would THAT which loves diversity so much that It created this Leela then make the final episode exactly the same?
And even if it's an on/off switch ultimately... since "i" can't get anywhere near the switch... and IT is obviously enjoying the Process of pretending to wake up... what can "i" do differently anyway? Happy trails indeed, Peanut!
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Post by zendancer on Jul 24, 2010 17:21:56 GMT -5
very interesting conversation...guess I am in the right place today... just a few thoughts, the truth of the universe is always available for direct knowing (no special mystery here) all the beauty, mystery, awareness and the rest is found within the dream of delusion. Awakening is in no way an incremental process. More like a light switch, on or off, no middle ground...this work isn't climbing a ladder...its jumping off a cliff Touché! It seemed from here that there was some kind of progress going on. So much for that i guess. Onward... This is an interesting issue. Yes, the realization that selfhood is an idea simply happens at a particular moment in time and the search for oneness comes to an end (one realizes that who one is is oneness and that separateness was imaginary). However, getting to that point can be a fascinating journey, and it often involves a significant change in lifestyle and mental habits. As adults starting out on the journey, most of us are practicing habits of mind that prevent us from seeing "what is" and simultaneously keep us trapped in the past and future, psychologically. We spend huge amounts of time fantasizing, reflecting, regretting, hoping, wishing, desiring, judging, and thinking what ought to be or what should be. We are almost never present in the here and now, and we rarely accept reality as it is. As we learn to spend more time in non-conceptual awareness, we realize that we were living in a kind of self-induced dreamstate. We steadily become more action-oriented in the here and now. We quit second-guessing ourselves and start spending more time "smelling the roses." By the time we penetrate the idea of selfhood, selfhood is no longer the primary focus of our attention. By that time we have learned to differentiate between what is real and what is a headtrip, and we are no longer spending the majority of our day thinking about "I, my, me, or mine." In a sense, the final breakthrough is like shedding an old skin that no longer serves any purpose. |
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allen
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Post by allen on Jul 24, 2010 17:30:06 GMT -5
wow
great Post Mr. Dancer
I agree
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Post by vacant on Jul 25, 2010 11:05:03 GMT -5
This is an interesting issue. Yes, the realization that selfhood is an idea simply happens at a particular moment in time and the search for oneness comes to an end (one realizes that who one is is oneness and that separateness was imaginary). However, getting to that point can be a fascinating journey, and it often involves a significant change in lifestyle and mental habits. As adults starting out on the journey, most of us are practicing habits of mind that prevent us from seeing "what is" and simultaneously keep us trapped in the past and future, psychologically. We spend huge amounts of time fantasizing, reflecting, regretting, hoping, wishing, desiring, judging, and thinking what ought to be or what should be. We are almost never present in the here and now, and we rarely accept reality as it is. As we learn to spend more time in non-conceptual awareness, we realize that we were living in a kind of self-induced dreamstate. We steadily become more action-oriented in the here and now. We quit second-guessing ourselves and start spending more time "smelling the roses." By the time we penetrate the idea of selfhood, selfhood is no longer the primary focus of our attention. By that time we have learned to differentiate between what is real and what is a headtrip, and we are no longer spending the majority of our day thinking about "I, my, me, or mine." In a sense, the final breakthrough is like shedding an old skin that no longer serves any purpose. Brilliant! Very well pitched, I think you put in some work to deliver that one. You confirm that while there truly can be no partial awakening, that it’s on or off with no intermediate degrees in between, there is still a road going that way, and that yellow brick road beckons to be travelled. Whether it’s a period of decomposition as Allen is alluding to, or Hercules’ works in burning-out as one tries to unmask the false, shall I call it a purification process? As you say “we learn to spend more time in non-conceptual awareness” and “We steadily become” and “the final breakthrough”, those all point to a gradual becoming. LM often pointed to and seemed particularly interested in “the process”, our own individual (ha!) path. Nisargadatta said that although the fruit falls from the tree in an instant it comes at the end of a period of ripening (sorry, not an exact quote). Isn’t there a progression of disenchantment with delusion’s show, to render that old skin useless and ready to shed? Of course extreme caution has to be exercised in not flattering personal pride by establishing any notion of hierarchy of achievement or understanding along the process, there are no such things as achievement or understanding, but that’s probably another story… Is this half right? Half wrong? My chips are on "way-out" but straight ahead is my only option!  |
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Post by vacant on Jul 25, 2010 11:18:45 GMT -5
Hi..think it ok to say it is a process.. we can get so caught up in words...i, see there is no i, but have to talk lol find notes helpful as well as checking my watch and touching my necklace. i am not in the same space i was a few years ago..there have been insights that have helped me grow and see more deeply so in that sense it is a process. In the beginning for example i couldn't separate and watch myself. Now that occurs. Or i couldn't get a non-conceptual practice. So for me it is a journey up the mountain and we all take a different path. Happy trails! ThankS for that Peanut, your post actually reminded me of ZD's insistance that i should never second guess myself, as well as of Franklin Merrell-Wolff'S statements that anyone has to make THEIR OWN WAY. No other is on this path but I. Thank you. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 25, 2010 14:47:45 GMT -5
Vacant: Yes, that's right. The danger is in thinking "I am making progress." or "I am getting somewhere." Those kinds of thoughts are part of the illusion that is eventually penetrated. Nisargadatta was very focused on his practice, but it still took three years for him to attain realization. Ramesh Balsekar practiced for twenty years under his first teacher. Then, after his retirement from being a bank president, he became a translator for Nisargadatta. One day like any other day he was translating something Nisargadatta had said to a western student and suddenly realized that he was conveying his own enlightened understanding. Nisargadatta instantly recognized what had happened even though he didn't speak English.
People who follow this path gradually leave consensual reality behind and enter a state of not-knowing. They start looking at the world and stop taking their understanding for granted. As they spend less and less time living in their heads and more and more time seeing and interacting with "what is," they significantly change their psychological outlook and state of being. A fantasy arises, it gets recognized, and "CHOP!" the sword of Manjusri cuts it off before it builds up any steam. The mind starts replaying old mental tapeloops and "CHOP!" the sword cuts them off. We interrupt the mindgames that habitually arise by asking "What can I see and hear right this moment?" As we leave the mind behind and enter the unknown world of the absolute, we, ourselves, change in innumerable ways. We no longer join in the mindless gossip and babble that passes for "normal" conversation. We lose interest in people who want to spend their time reveling in the past or worrying about the future. CHOP! CHOP! We want to "be here now" experiencing what is real. In the process of doing so we quit reinforcing the habits of mind that create and maintain the idea of personal selfhood. The fruit will drop when it is sufficiently ripe.
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Post by vacant on Jul 25, 2010 15:49:50 GMT -5
Vacant: Yes, that's right. The danger is in thinking "I am making progress." or "I am getting somewhere." Those kinds of thoughts are part of the illusion that is eventually penetrated. Nisargadatta was very focused on his practice, but it still took three years for him to attain realization. Ramesh Balsekar practiced for twenty years under his first teacher. Then, after his retirement from being a bank president, he became a translator for Nisargadatta. One day like any other day he was translating something Nisargadatta had said to a western student and suddenly realized that he was conveying his own enlightened understanding. Nisargadatta instantly recognized what had happened even though he didn't speak English. People who follow this path gradually leave consensual reality behind and enter a state of not-knowing. They start looking at the world and stop taking their understanding for granted. As they spend less and less time living in their heads and more and more time seeing and interacting with "what is," they significantly change their psychological outlook and state of being. A fantasy arises, it gets recognized, and "CHOP!" the sword of Manjusri cuts it off before it builds up any steam. The mind starts replaying old mental tapeloops and "CHOP!" the sword cuts them off. We interrupt the mindgames that habitually arise by asking "What can I see and hear right this moment?" As we leave the mind behind and enter the unknown world of the absolute, we, ourselves, change in innumerable ways. We no longer join in the mindless gossip and babble that passes for "normal" conversation. We lose interest in people who want to spend their time reveling in the past or worrying about the future. CHOP! CHOP! We want to "be here now" experiencing what is real. In the process of doing so we quit reinforcing the habits of mind that create and maintain the idea of personal selfhood. The fruit will drop when it is sufficiently ripe. ZD, i don't want to make a Hollywood scene out of this but i'm actually crying. Don't know who or what to thank. It'll pass, as all does. |
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Post by peanut on Jul 25, 2010 16:18:35 GMT -5
This is a great thread...thanks all...i really got a lot out of ZD's post about chopping! thanks. Need to keep hearing it while practicing. Manjushri a Buddhist Boddisattva? Also coming back to the breath is most helpful when i don't have note for a reminder. We always have our breath with us :-)
No..thank you Vacant :-)
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Post by zendancer on Jul 25, 2010 17:21:23 GMT -5
Peanut: Yep, Manjushri is the buddhist bodhisattva of transcendental wisdom. He is often pictured with a big sword supposedly used for cutting off thoughts. Some Zen Master once gave a talk about using M's sword to cut through all kinds of mind garbage, and the image stuck in my mind. Now, when I think about fantasies and other similar kinds of thought-streams, I see that sword slashing through them and stopping them in their tracks. Chop chop! LOL
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waddicalwabbit
Full Member
Let's all go down the wabbit hole
Posts: 125
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 25, 2010 18:06:51 GMT -5
This is a lovely thread and reflects my own experience. McKenna calls this step reaching 'human adulthood'. There is process involved in all of that; learning to come back to breath, come back to present, learning to chop off mind bs as it arises, the practice of noticing what's going on in the body, locating angst and inquiring about it, avoiding unnecessary distraction like tuning out. Those are all learned and practiced and cumulative and ultimately become habitual. They are not the ultimate 'flick of the switch'. I grok that. Richard Rose said 'Awakening is an accident, but you can become more accident prone' as I recall. Something to that effect.
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dei
Junior Member
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Post by dei on Jul 25, 2010 18:30:44 GMT -5
Perhaps those of us who are processed to Clarity, being 'ready' are able to 'keep' it... rather than those who have a brilliant moment (or months) of Awareness only to find the self returning through old habits of thought. That would make it worth the wait. |
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Post by runstill on Jul 25, 2010 20:08:38 GMT -5
Aha synchronicity strikes once again on the board and I'm great full for it.
The last few days have been kinda quiet around here so I've been doing more looking inward than usual which is fine its just that it is easier to think about whats discussed here and just plain think stuff,
than it is to pay attention to think-ings.
Any way I was out doing my weekend thing in nature this morning,
I thought I was not going to let mind take me out of the 'here now' as ZD mentions.
My intention is always to be attentive without thought but for me its very hard to do more than a few seconds and than minutes pass before I realize I'm in illusion creating illusion again. Just a circle
of 99% illusion 1% non-illusion.My mind is very tenacious it's not in its nature to be silent it demands a dialog.
Well For the first time I had a awareness as my mind would start a
thought I would watch it for a bit let it play out a moment and sorta
have this awareness of it creating illusion then stop it in an instant.
It was fun and exciting ' CHOP' resonates perfectly as a way to express the experience. Its these kind of threads that validate our
path. ZD thanks
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Post by loverofall on Jul 26, 2010 17:22:14 GMT -5
My journey started with emotional counseling of undoing thoughts and behaviors that I used to control. I was taught that these changes would be uncomfortable. As I learned about the pathless path, those same practices are part of this path. Maybe because I approached this from the emotional side first expecting to feel bad at times.
The journey is the destination and a side result has been less suffering and more peace.
Seeing the illusionary self and that it is just another object sure has helped dissolve resentments, rejections, anxieties, anger, frustration, loneliness.
I was reading in ZD's book "Pouring Concrete" how he had his heart opening experience at a Gangaji event and how he realized Zen didn't focus enough on the heart side of this path.
Everything we do is to feel better or hope of feeling better and eventually on this path we realize we have to give that up and be able to feel whatever is arising like we could feel that way the rest of our life. There is no where to go then. When feelings are accepted that deep, game over. The journey is literally the destination.
As you read this right now awareness is watching the words appear and seeing what ever emotion is arising inside you as physical sensations. There is no where to go, nothing to do, nothing to be, nothing to fix, nothing to avoid. Just this energy manifesting through this mind body right now as thoughts, feelings and sensations. If you want this, there is nothing else to ever want.
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