waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 5, 2010 12:20:04 GMT -5
I ask this because it is a frequently asked question in the process for many people but I also like the exercise of articulating my experience. McKenna seems to say in the early pages of 'the damndest thing' that nothing is wrong ever WITH the apparent exception of that which threatens our physical survival. Any non dualist that I know would say something similar. That which threatens our survival is still not 'wrong' perhaps but requires attention to create a change in circumstance. Not looking to have a symantic argument here. What I'm interested in is just how far that extends. If someone in our family or community of friends is physically threatened it seems we would probaby take action. Just how far does that cause for action extend? To people we've never met in other countries? There are plenty of people who are being abused or tortured or are starving on the planet. For me it feels like what I am personally going through although it might look pretty awful to someone else has been what I call a conspiracy to awaken, to show up, to inquire, and a calling to spend more time 'being' and allowing everything to be as it is. Its been a blessing in many respects. I also know that when I cannot positively affect physical pain or extreme discomfort that the thoughts that it is wrong are not only helpful but the resistance only fuels the discomfort. A great lesson in acceptance. So apparently nothing is 'wrong' when someone in Gitmo is being tortured, but we might feel called to do what we can to prevent it? I use torture at Gitmo but there are certainly worse forms of abuse and apparent suffering. How do you personally hold that nothing like this is wrong? Yes I know thank you that non of us or this exists and blahblahblah. Love to all
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Post by ravenscroft on Jul 5, 2010 14:22:20 GMT -5
I ask this because it is a frequently asked question in the process for many people but I also like the exercise of articulating my experience. McKenna seems to say in the early pages of 'the d**ndest thing' that nothing is wrong ever WITH the apparent exception of that which threatens our physical survival. Any non dualist that I know would say something similar. That which threatens our survival is still not 'wrong' perhaps but requires attention to create a change in circumstance. Not looking to have a symantic argument here. What I'm interested in is just how far that extends. If someone in our family or community of friends is physically threatened it seems we would probaby take action. Just how far does that cause for action extend? To people we've never met in other countries? There are plenty of people who are being abused or tortured or are starving on the planet. For me it feels like what I am personally going through although it might look pretty awful to someone else has been what I call a conspiracy to awaken, to show up, to inquire, and a calling to spend more time 'being' and allowing everything to be as it is. Its been a blessing in many respects. I also know that when I cannot positively affect physical pain or extreme discomfort that the thoughts that it is wrong are not only helpful but the resistance only fuels the discomfort. A great lesson in acceptance. So apparently nothing is 'wrong' when someone in Gitmo is being tortured, but we might feel called to do what we can to prevent it? I use torture at Gitmo but there are certainly worse forms of abuse and apparent suffering. How do you personally hold that nothing like this is wrong? Yes I know thank you that non of us or this exists and blahblahblah. Love to all great post friend glad to see your spirits are up!
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Post by karen on Jul 5, 2010 15:40:36 GMT -5
How do you personally hold that nothing like this is wrong? Yes I know thank you that non of us or this exists and blahblahblah. Keep at that question without that last part (the knowing). I "know" the answer to your question, but I feel it would be meaningless to put it into words.
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Post by vacant on Jul 5, 2010 16:27:09 GMT -5
WW, you might be anoyed with my reply, but is anything ever right? Is it right or/and wrong to have your feelings and emotions, right or wrong if they drive you to action, perhaps picking up the sword? I know nothing about right nor wrong but I find there is discomfort attached to claiming ownership of those emotions and actions. And more discomfort attached to either justifying them or controling them, I’m expert in that kind of perversion.
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 5, 2010 17:32:15 GMT -5
Hi Karen. I've had the experience of non existence. It's variable. Sometimes 'I' do and sometimes 'I' don't exist. I like to talk about situations where people (and sometimes 'I') commonly get hung up, less interested in riddles. So yeah, go ahead and tell me how you deal with it when something that's pretty awful occurs, if you're willing. I've lived with and around a a lot of 'awful'. It has in the past pushed my buttons pretty hard. It IS different now, but maybe I'm not done with it. I like to explore. Why mess around with the lightweight?
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 5, 2010 17:40:15 GMT -5
Hi Vacant. Not annoyed at all. Thanks for the response. I can't remember the name of the Jewish lawyer guy who wrote the book about Richard Rose. He talks about a point wherein Rose punches somebody out and then defends his actions to some of his followers who question him. Maybe he's not defending but teaching. I'll buy that. is that the 'picking up the sword' that you speak of, either the physical action or his defense of the physical action? I too find that it is uncomfortable to claim ownership of right and wrong. I'm claiming this rightness and/or wrongness issue as something that I may not be complete with. I'm all about discomfort.
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Post by enigma on Jul 6, 2010 2:12:15 GMT -5
It's easy to mix up acceptance with inaction. One doesn't really have anything to do with the other. The murderer hasn't done something wrong. Toss him in the slammer anyhoo.
The paradox lies in the fact that the action is in a different context from the understanding that nothing wrong has happened. In the context of human relations, it makes no sense to let a murderer go on murdering, but in the larger context, the murder is not doing the murdering, which would make separation and independent volition a reality rather than an illusion.
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Post by charlie gee on Jul 6, 2010 8:34:34 GMT -5
hey wabbit, lost my wife to ovarian cancer last year and I'd say that from the perspective of a husband, father and grandfather that yes things can get pretty wrong ... I know from another perspective that all is well but that doesn't usually help to deal with grieving loved ones ... don't know that a proponent of non-duality would be my first choice for a speaker at a funeral ... all this stuff is useful to a degree and totally useless in some situations ... I don't know the lingo but do know that good can come out of bad but to abdicate all notions of right and wrong is lofty thinking and most 'common' people have no way of relating to it ... I say this as a lifelong seeker whose search has pretty much grounded to a halt after the events of the last year, and to me, that is not a bad thing ... I still do the 'unthinkable' and believe in God who I believe has delivered me from my previous destructive behavior ...
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Post by vacant on Jul 6, 2010 9:07:44 GMT -5
is that the 'picking up the sword' that you speak of, either the physical action or his defense of the physical action? I just mean the same thing as Enigma's tossing the murderer in the slammer, IOW simply do what needs to be done. The rest will deal with itself! Good to read all the great responses to your thread.
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 6, 2010 9:13:05 GMT -5
Hi enigma. What I find is that it's easy to learn the advaita terminology and 'belief' system and to parrot it. "It is all one, there is no two, nothing is ever wrong, blahblahblah". I sense both on this forum; a very few, if any (how would i know? By what measure would I judge? who live in abiding non duality if you will and those who believe in it, if you get my drift. No judgment here. For me I fall into category B. I get to live bits of it sometimes, but mostly I just like to hang out with you all. Partial non abiding awakeness is great, sorta like pasteurized processed cheese food substance. It ain't cheese but it has some protein. God, I'm a whackjob. When I use 'you' in the following, I'm addressing anyone in the group. (even me) It seems like there are a small, but critical handful of instances where the 'belief' might break down. For me they fit into these categories: Nothing is ever wrong. Even when something truly 'horrible' happens to someone we dearly love. When their lives are shattered perhaps forever. I literally just closed my finger in the car door. Feels wrong to me. :-). Ok, I'll probably get over it, but it's bleeding all over my keyboard. See how easy this is? Life is meaningless. I encourage everyone to wear that to work today and then bring it home to their families. See how that fits and feels. To examine everything that happens or that we do and see that virtually EVERY action we take is driven by some perhaps subtle motivation to feel better about ourselves. 'I' finished that huge pile of work in only 4 hours today, I cut and baled 61 round bales all by myself', I made a nice breakfast for the grandkids'. Obviously these could just be awarenesses but more likely are some kinda egofood. It's challenging to be this relentless. Not that there's anything 'wrong' with feeding that little illusion if you care to. One of my struggles (and lessons) has been my inability to 'do' hardly a darn thing. Can't walk a mile many days or help my friends who have invited me to 'die' on their land, many days can't sit at the computer and type or even read. Life is meaningless. :-) No separation. Today a woman is being stoned to death in Iran. YOU are throwing the stones. You are the woman being stoned. You are the judge that decreed this. It is your 'fault' this is happening. This is NOT theoretical. If you go there in your heart and try that on all the way down, live that experience from those various positions, does that work for you? There is no independent volition. Nobody is doing anything. You can state this, you can make it a belief, but do you hold it as true down to the atoms that make up the cells that make up the bones deep inside of your experience? Come on, do you really? Did you really go there? Or is it just a belief? For myself, I'm not answering these questions in this now and I'm not suggesting that anyone else needs to answer for themselves. Just doing the work that dispels illusion. McKenna in that little video that Ahab put up talks about cutting off an ounce of flesh every day between here and enlightenment to help you stay focused, to crank your seriousness up a notch. How much of you is gone by the time you awaken? Hmmmm, let's see, I weigh just under 200 lbs. That would give me about 9 years here on dirtworld. I'd take that. :-) Love to all, Wabbit
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
Posts: 125
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 6, 2010 9:41:23 GMT -5
Hi Charlie G. I can't imagine losing your life partner. I hear what you're saying. Tough to explain to yourself, let alone the grandkids that nothing wrong has happened. I also feel the growth that you describe in yourself as a result of the experience and the gratitude that you have for this moment.
I lost a brother to lymphoma, an aunt to ovarian, my mom to pan can and have been diagnosed with terminal cancer myself (and it's kicking my ass). And yet I'm with you on the gratitude thing.
Sending love,
Wabbit
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Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2010 9:41:44 GMT -5
hey wabbit, lost my wife to ovarian cancer last year and I'd say that from the perspective of a husband, father and grandfather that yes things can get pretty wrong ... I know from another perspective that all is well but that doesn't usually help to deal with grieving loved ones ... don't know that a proponent of non-duality would be my first choice for a speaker at a funeral ... all this stuff is useful to a degree and totally useless in some situations ... I don't know the lingo but do know that good can come out of bad but to abdicate all notions of right and wrong is lofty thinking and most 'common' people have no way of relating to it ... I say this as a lifelong seeker whose search has pretty much grounded to a halt after the events of the last year, and to me, that is not a bad thing ... I still do the 'unthinkable' and believe in God who I believe has delivered me from my previous destructive behavior ... Charlie: Don't confuse the lingo with the reality. Talking about non duality and pointing to non duality is not the same as living in non duality. Non duality is very down-to-earth, extremely concrete, and utterly simple. Your poems capture that simplicity. Getting up in the morning, brushing our teeth, cooking and eating breakfast, going to work, dealing with whatever arises........nothing could be simpler. Problems appear only when the mind jumps into the fray. Here is the way Rumi put it: "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about. Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other' doesn't make any sense." I often get asked to perform weddings and funerals because I focus solely upon what is real, and in doing so I try to capture the poignancy, beauty, and pathos of human existence. I am not interested in ideas or beliefs, so there is no preaching or teaching. There is only a celebration of life in the fullest sense, and a pointing to what is most mysterious. Who was the person who died? What were her funny habits? What made him unique? Why did we love her? How were we changed by knowing him? After someone dies, we don't need abstractions. We want to feel our loss, to revel in our grief, to cry our eyes out, to remember and re-experience the love.....until we are emptied out in the way you previously described. A great loss, if allowed fully in, goes so deep that it sweeps away everything, and we are left clean, open, empty, and at peace. About thirty years ago my brother, Walt, died in a car wreck at the age of thirty. He was a people-person; he owned a popular restaurant; and he had hundreds of friends. He was an agnostic, but the funeral was conducted at my parent's church by a Baptist minister. The minister did his best. He talked about heaven and how my brother was now in a better place. He quoted scripture and gave a short sermon about eternal life and all the usual stuff, but he knew that he somehow hadn't connected with the vast audience of young people. He told my mother later that it was one of the few times he hadn't known what to say at a funeral. I left the funeral feeling totally dissatisfied. That night my brother's partner opened Walt's restaurant and invited everyone who knew Walt to come. After a round of drinks, one by one people got up on the bar and told their favorite stories about Walt. They told about the kind and generous things he had done, the wild and crazy things he had done--all of the things that made him so unique. We laughed and cried and raised our glasses in toast after toast, and in that wake and celebration we found completeness and satisfaction. No moralizing, no ideas, and no "heaven is a better place" nonsense. Afterwards, I found that all I wanted to do was sit in a chair, listen to Walt's favorite music, and cry. I did that night after night for two months until everything was washed away and his death had become fully internalized. Someone else might do it a different way. One woman I know began knitting a blanket after her child died, and she knitted for six straight months. What this points to has nothing to do with the mind.
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 6, 2010 9:47:35 GMT -5
hah! that was sposed to say that the cancer is kicking my butt (I used a different term), but the software changed it to 'kicking I disagree'. Cute of it.
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waddicalwabbit
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Let's all go down the wabbit hole
Posts: 125
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Post by waddicalwabbit on Jul 6, 2010 9:56:13 GMT -5
beautiful post, zd. thank you. that's it exactly. the richness of the experience, the tears that wash the slate clean. Gibran said something to the effect that sadness carves out the cup of the heart so that it can hold more joy. That's a gross paraphrase, but you get the gist. The emptying of the heart through fully felt grief can be amazingly transformative. I would say that my experience of life is incredibly richer and more valuable to me because of the emptiness that has occurred (not that i'd like to sign up for more loss, tyvm).
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Post by karen on Jul 6, 2010 10:39:46 GMT -5
Last month when my mom died, I had my practice and path. But it wasn't me mouthing platitudes. I cried for hours a day (still cry here and there), and I'd often go into her room, kneel down towards her sweater hanging on her closet door and rub the sleeves on my cheeks - remembering her and trying to calculate the immense loss - often times came of deep howling as if from a primate cousin. When the hospital called and told me she was on life support: "how should we proceed?" I quickly and without hesitation demanded they do everything in their power - spare no tool or medicine to get her back. But she had already died. My best friend was gone. As much as I'd love to have her back (and if I am still here when/if singularity is achieved I fully intend to get her back!), I cannot say I wished she didn't die because she did die.
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