Karma Points, Morrie, Distractions

[sophia]

I've mostly managed to stay out of the debates that have been taking place on this forum, with the exception of sticking my head in every now and then. The one time I stuck my head in I lost a karma point because Morrie apparently didn't like my two-word statement, "ambidextrous sorcery", which I posted to bring a little bit of humor to a bit of the debate that has been going on heavily in this forum. I've been avoiding people more and more because something as simple as losing a karma point can cause me to have my feelings hurt and so I focus on that more than I focus on spirituality, and so I lose my place with God.

I've been trying to think about why something as small as that can have me upset and leave me in the bed for almost two days now because of the depression it caused.

It is my opinion that we should do away with the karma system on this board because all it is is a distraction.

[lightmystic]

This is not about the Karma system, this is exposing an assumption in you that is causing pain. It did it's work well, and was kind of a minor situation to trigger something pretty extreme. That's great. Some people need a car accident or something like that for the trigger to happen. Better out than in, I say.

Anyway, depression is, arguably, the most difficult emotional state to be in. Where is it coming from? What does it feel like? If you don't want to answer publicly on the forum (which I can understand), send me an e-mail. Ultimately, this could end up being one of the best things that's ever happened to you, depending on how you are able to move it through. It's in your power, but that doesn't mean it's not extreme or difficult or terrifyingly painful. I certainly understand all of that.

Oh, and here's an extra karma point. Does that help?

[lightmystic]

Also, your experiences of God are wonderful, but it cannot last in it's current fragile state. That is why life helps strengthen you. It puts you in a situation that has been classified in your head as "not God" and says, "could this, too, actually be God?"
In any situation where God is truly and clearly recognized and experienced. There is no place for suffering to exist. That doesn't mean there cannot be any sort of different experiences, but they all become safe.

Dec 8, 2008 16:29:20 GMT -5 sophia said:

I've mostly managed to stay out of the debates that have been taking place on this forum, with the exception of sticking my head in every now and then. The one time I stuck my head in I lost a karma point because Morrie apparently didn't like my two-word statement, "ambidextrous sorcery", which I posted to bring a little bit of humor to a bit of the debate that has been going on heavily in this forum. I've been avoiding people more and more because something as simple as losing a karma point can cause me to have my feelings hurt and so I focus on that more than I focus on spirituality, and so I lose my place with God.

I've been trying to think about why something as small as that can have me upset and leave me in the bed for almost two days now because of the depression it caused.

It is my opinion that we should do away with the karma system on this board because all it is is a distraction.

[sophia]

I didn't make the post to try to get people to give me a point, but thank you. I was just wanting to make the point that for some people the Karma point system on this forum can be a distraction. Either the karma points can make a person's head big or they can be injurious. Either way all the Karma points do is stimulate the ego either positively or negatively and either way any stimulation to the ego only gives the ego strength.

But anyway, I think there is a difference between injuring someone with tough love and injuring someone out of just meanness, which I think is where Morrie was coming from, and it is my opinion that Morrie is still sore from when I disagreed with him about kicking SwamiCollins out of the forum because of my willingness to try to give Swami some opportunities to change his ways, which we'll all agree, I'm sure, turned out to be a waste of time. A friend of mine gave me a reading last night from the I Ching, and one of the things it said to me was that I should only spend my nourishment on those that are on the path. "In bestowing care and nourishment it is important that the right people be taken care of- those seeking and on the path." I had hoped that somehow by giving SwamiCollins much needed nourishment, he would feel it and would come around. I felt love for Swami even in spite of his "mean old grandfather" ways. (The words in quotes were spoken by a friend.) So, I don't need to say anymore about this but my point to bring it up is so that Morrie can cease being angry at me for my persistence in trying to help SwamiCollins.

[klaus]

lightmystic

Your mental gmnastics are just that in relation to Sophia's post about Morrie.

You assume you know her Spiritual state, based on your own experience.Based on my experience there are as many paths as there are people in this world.

I don't presume to know if Morrie's removel of a karma point was a lapse in judgement or just plain meanness, but i do know he didn't consider the effect it would have on Sophia.

Do no harm......

And giving Sophia a karma point? That was flippant.

We better watch ourselves because we're all susceptable to spiritual pride.

[sophia]

I know Klaus is just trying to look out for me. He's a true spiritual friend and I appreciate that.

I will admit that having a point restored by LightMystic felt good, and somehow eased some of the turmoil I was experiencing. But then what I felt for that is also further proof that these Karmas are stimulation. At least they are for me, I don't know about anyone else. They're so stimulating that they allowed me to create a drama out of them.

On another topic, I know what Klaus means about spiritual pride, because I've felt it before in the waking of some of my new spiritual senses or feelings, and it came in the way of feeling slightly irritated that most of the world was sleeping, and why can't others feel God as I have felt God? The pride came from thinking I was somehow special. And now I see that Life tests me by sometimes allowing me to feel disconnected from God. It happens a lot since I first felt the connection - I oscillate.

I won't blabber on too much. I just wanted to speak about some of the things I've experienced lately. I do thank you, LightMystic and Klaus. I don't want my drama to carry on to other people, so let's forget I brought it up. I'm sorry for stirring the you-know-what. Sometimes I do things I regret.

[lightmystic]

Well, there was certainly no offense intended. Apologies to sophia if it came off harsh.

Perhaps you are assuming that I have not communicated with Sophia about her experience. She has communicated her experience of God on this forum and it's pretty amazing. You might enjoy checking it out. I know that it went away (or felt like it did) because she stated something to that effect in her post.

I have no presumptions as to what Sophia's path should or does look like outside of what she has mentioned. I'm not sure where that's coming from. I have no disagreement that everyone's path is unique.

I am, further, not making a judgment as to what Morrie was thinking or whether it was right or wrong. I am suggesting, however, that it happened FOR sophia, not TO her. So, to be honest, I'm really not sure where your remarks are coming from klaus. Although I would be interested to know.

You might say that my post was mental gymnastics, but I see it as anything but that. There is a theme in life that I've noticed. When a person gets to a certain level of openness, they are ready to stabilize it, and so life takes them through every reason that they thought could make it go away to show them that it's really still there. Then it happens with the next level of openness, and so on. It's happened to me many times, and is still happening to me. Further, I've seen it happen to many other people. Usually people appreciate this sort of perspective, because it puts it into context and really does allow people amazing opportunities for growth if they choose to or are able to take advantage of that.
The one thing that I certainly do know is that it's never about something outside of oneself. There is nothing that cannot be resolved in oneself.

Perhaps the question is, why are you assuming that what I'm saying isn't useful? Have you really examined it or thought about it in your own experience? Why are you so quick to dismiss this?

As for giving the point being flippant, it's certainly possible, but it wasn't intended with that feeling in mind. If I can make her feel better by giving her a karma point, I'm happy to do it. That point is well deserved as far as I'm concerned. I'm aware that the points don't mean anything, but I see no harm in showing appreciation for someone.

I'm not sure where you got the idea of spiritual pride in my post, but I would be interested to know. Also, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by spiritual pride. If it's a reference to a feeling of being better than, then it's ridiculous. The whole premise of better or worse just doesn't make any sense. Is a toaster better than a vacuum cleaner? We all have our function and fulfill it perfectly. At least, that is my experience.

If it's a reference to feeling that one can know something that another doesn't, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You could say that if everyone's path is so individual, then the idea that one could know where anyone is is invalid. And while I certainly cannot disagree with the premise that one cannot definitively know another's experience, I had a lot of experiences that I did not know what to do with, and was very appreciative when those who had put it in context for me. I've also helped others put their experience in context and they were appreciative, as it seemed to really help them with their growth, much as it helped me when others did it for me. You can disagree with that if you want, but I really don't see the point of coming to a spiritual message board if the premise is that we cannot help each other.

Finally, I don't care whether I end up being right or you do or whatever. I find that if spiritual experience is poked, no matter what the initial opinion is, then the truth comes out. It's the poking that's useful and openness to any result, in my experience. It doesn't matter who is right. Although my intuition tends to serve me pretty well these days, whether sophia, or anyone else, finds my interpretation of their experience to be correct or not doesn't matter at all, as it's only that people are really feeling into their experience and considering it, and questioning it, and so forth. That is an amazing way for growth to happen.

Anyway, I would enjoy hearing your response.

Dec 8, 2008 18:25:16 GMT -5 klaus said:

lightmystic

Your mental gmnastics are just that in relation to Sophia's post about Morrie.

You assume you know her Spiritual state, based on your own experience.Based on my experience there are as many paths as there are people in this world.

I don't presume to know if Morrie's removel of a karma point was a lapse in judgement or just plain meanness, but i do know he didn't consider the effect it would have on Sophia.

Do no harm......

And giving Sophia a karma point? That was flippant.

We better watch ourselves because we're all susceptable to spiritual pride.

[Peter]

The Karma point thing is interesting. On the one side I know it's a largely meaningless number - spiritual development is not based on the results of a popularity contest. On the other hand, it does draw the Ego to it, and I know a lot of people "like to be liked". I do.

I was laughing at myself the other day because I wanted to add a point to LightMystic for something helpful he'd said, but couldn't bring myself to do it because he already had "too many" points. Which is to say: More than me!

So yes it is distracting, but because reacting to it is all about EGO, it may be useful for this board. I'm sorry it had such a negative reaction on Sophia. Sophia, I hope you can draw something positive from the experience - perhaps work on your psychic defenses.

P

EDIT - Changed Sophia part from 3rd to 2nd person

[sophia]

Hehehe.... I like the humor that Peter has brought into this, and his honesty, too.

Yes, LightMystic is leaving us behind in the dust with his karma points.

I don't mind not being on top, but it isn't fun to have them taken away especially if you didn't say anything that was harmful to anyone. Which really, our little group has been blessed to have mostly helpful and caring people, with the except of that poor Mr. Collins, and I've always wanted to say how proud I was of our group for handling it as best we can. You won't find too many forums on this Internet that would handle that the way we all as a team have handled it.

[Peter]

Humph! I notice my humour and honesty didn't bring me any Karmic reward however. Where's the flat mouth smiley when I need it ?

In difficult postings recently, I've been finding it helpful to remember that 90% of what people say and do is about them, not you. So however upset you might get about someone else, you need only really be 10% as upset

Also if you're providing a spiritually helpful service to others by holding up a mirror so they can see themselves clearly, then they'll probably not enjoy that very much. So don't worry too much if wise words (LightMystic) are dismissed out of hand - they may not be ready to hear them and forcing people to see themselves would infringe their free will.

[commiejesus]

Hey, I just lost a "karma point"...albeit in a different circumstance (not for being sassy
Look at it this way - you are still at 5 and I am at 2....

Dec 8, 2008 16:29:20 GMT -5 sophia said:

I've mostly managed to stay out of the debates that have been taking place on this forum, with the exception of sticking my head in every now and then. The one time I stuck my head in I lost a karma point because Morrie apparently didn't like my two-word statement, "ambidextrous sorcery", which I posted to bring a little bit of humor to a bit of the debate that has been going on heavily in this forum. I've been avoiding people more and more because something as simple as losing a karma point can cause me to have my feelings hurt and so I focus on that more than I focus on spirituality, and so I lose my place with God.

I've been trying to think about why something as small as that can have me upset and leave me in the bed for almost two days now because of the depression it caused.

It is my opinion that we should do away with the karma system on this board because all it is is a distraction.

[klaus]

lightmystic

I respectfully decline to respond to your post regarding my statements to you, in the spirit of Sophia's wish to 'move on'.

This does not mean I don't value you statements and questions, nor does it mean I don't take them into consideration. but to continue would not serve you or me well.

this was a moment of transition; nothing more, nothing less.


yours in Peace,Klaus

[lightmystic]

Okay, no problem.

Dec 9, 2008 15:42:16 GMT -5 klaus said:

lightmystic

I respectfully decline to respond to your post regarding my statements to you, in the spirit of Sophia's wish to 'move on'.

This does not mean I don't value you statements and questions, nor does it mean I don't take them into consideration. but to continue would not serve you or me well.

this was a moment of transition; nothing more, nothing less.


yours in Peace,Klaus

[fear]

I sure don't mind dropping the personal drama part but I think this post is a great way to gain some insight into ourselves. My initial reaction was that of Lightmystic's, to offer help when a fellow friend is experiencing negative feelings especially when you know what the source is.

You may argue that there is no way of knowing the source of conflict in another but when you know yourself you know a lot about others too. I know that when I'm sad, happy, depressed, those feelings are in me, they are not out there. I am causing them because of my reaction to whatever is happening.

If anyone sees anything in what I write that could be of help to my growth, please do share. Tell me I'm a egotistical bastard if you think I am. I would appreciate it. Compliments are what strengthen the ego. It's saying good job ego, keep it up.

Has anyone managed to get their hands on Anthony Demello's book "Awareness". This was the first time I read about negative feelings in me, caused by me. It was such an awakening moment to realize that, You can't hurt me, only I can hurt myself.

[lightmystic]

Good points fear. When people start taking complete responsibility for every aspect of their life, then they are empowered to change it. Real change cannot come without taking responsibility for the fact that one is literally creating all of their own experiences.

And, sure, people say "oh yeah, I agree with that" because they want to be empowered, but when s**t hits the fan they are right back to blaming others, and trying to change the world around them. If a person just takes it completely seriously and intellectually understands how it happens, then there is literally nothing they cannot do.

Dec 9, 2008 22:39:01 GMT -5 fear said:

I sure don't mind dropping the personal drama part but I think this post is a great way to gain some insight into ourselves. My initial reaction was that of Lightmystic's, to offer help when a fellow friend is experiencing negative feelings especially when you know what the source is.

You may argue that there is no way of knowing the source of conflict in another but when you know yourself you know a lot about others too. I know that when I'm sad, happy, depressed, those feelings are in me, they are not out there. I am causing them because of my reaction to whatever is happening.

If anyone sees anything in what I write that could be of help to my growth, please do share. Tell me I'm a egotistical bastard if you think I am. I would appreciate it. Compliments are what strengthen the ego. It's saying good job ego, keep it up.

Has anyone managed to get their hands on Anthony Demello's book "Awareness". This was the first time I read about negative feelings in me, caused by me. It was such an awakening moment to realize that, You can't hurt me, only I can hurt myself.