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Post by loverofall on Jun 4, 2010 20:43:33 GMT -5
The more I see my own patterns and watch others, the more it seen that there can not be a separate doer and thinker. A personality is just what was created by reactions of cells creating a certain nervous system and then exposing it to an environment. The doing or thinking is what happens when you mix traits with environment. The writing of this email is the effect of causes that had nothing to do with this thinker.
Thinking is a process just like the heart beating or hair growing. Its vibrations of energy based on reactions to stimuli which are other vibrations of energy. The thinker process somehow thinks it is in control of what it does but in reality it has no choice but to follow the conditioning and responses.
This person undoing itself is just what happens when you mix this group of cells, conditioning and interactions with others via in person and internet. It never had a choice though it thinks it actually created the thought to do all of this. It takes ownership of what is happening just like it thinks it is making the heart beat.
This programmed mind interacting with its environment resulted in a self delete command. The program thinks it decided to delete itself but it had no choice. A certain mix of variables happened and these thoughts arise not this thinker created them. Its like a chemical reaction but a thought reaction. Just a gazillion more variables.
Looking at people like animatrons seems closer to reality. There are no choices. I can predict many behaviors and if some can be predicted probably all can if enough variables are known and computing power is available.
Exhausting realization though. Has been draining to have this realization deeper. Must be thinker seeing its weakening.
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Post by loverofall on Jun 4, 2010 21:14:05 GMT -5
I then had the thought "If it all can be predicted why does oneness even manifest" but then I thought there first has to be reactions and manifestation to be able to predict it. Is this one big experiment?
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Post by enigma on Jun 4, 2010 23:01:47 GMT -5
I predict that you can't predict your next thought, but I could be wrong about that.
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Post by peanut on Jun 5, 2010 12:20:10 GMT -5
I predict that you can't predict your next thought, but I could be wrong about that. Enigma...this is a twofold thingy...figuring out the quote thing and a question...aren't thoughts just like rising bubbles in a pot of water? |
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Post by enigma on Jun 5, 2010 19:22:59 GMT -5
I predict that you can't predict your next thought, but I could be wrong about that. Enigma...this is a twofold thingy...figuring out the quote thing and a question...aren't thoughts just like rising bubbles in a pot of water? Yeah, maybe a little more hot air.  |
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Post by loverofall on Jun 7, 2010 18:08:00 GMT -5
As I play with this insight it becomes much clearer how interrelated everything is. It feels insane to hear people when they think God can answer their prayer and it not affect a million other people. Selfish is the word and separate. Me at the cost of the whole world.
The key part for me is to see how everything is a reaction to other actions based on previous conditioning. Choices appear but are they really free of all conditioning and personality traits. They can't be. As we interact with the environment we are one with the environment affecting it and it is affecting us.
It feels like another part of the illusion is seen through. First, seeing that I and my name and me are all thoughts thinking about more thoughts. Then seeing how even this email is based on my conditioning and traits and exposure to stimuli and that it is really no different than different shaped object bouncing off one another. The email is typed but it is an illusion to think it comes form the thinker. The thinker takes ownership but this is really just a conditioned response based on a gazillion factors coming together.
The wave analogy works better for me if you see how each wave affects other waves. For some reason seeing people as flowers of the same plant helps to see past separateness as they are all interconnected and dependent on the flowers, the leaves, the stems, the roots, the soil, the sun, the bugs etc. There is no flower without everything else. The thoughts that we are separate appear ridiculous in this light.
Total dependence on everything. There is no independence to the point of there is not separation. It is becoming easier to sit back and relax into this.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 7, 2010 18:22:55 GMT -5
Loverofall: You would probably enjoy reading any of the books by Ramesh Balsekar. He was a delightful Advaita teacher who made many of the same points contained in your post. Ramesh, who died recently at the age of about 100, became a translator for Nisargadatta (putting Nisargadatta's words into English) after he retired as a bank president. One day in the midst of a translation Ramesh began answering the questioner directly. Nisargadatta immediately looked at him and said something like, "Now you understand." Nisargadatta later told Ramesh that his teaching would be different than his own and that he should expect people to reject him. Ramesh lived in Bombay and he became more popular with foreigners than with Indians--primarily because he had been a businessman and Indians don;t like gurus who have handled money. LOL! AAR, check out his book "Consciousness Speaks."
Ramesh often made the point that whatever thought is currently appearing in a person's mind is the result of an infinite number of unknowable factors including genetics, conditioning, experiences, etc. I once planned to go see Ramesh in Germany during one of his tours of Europe, and I wrote him a letter to that effect. He wrote back and said, "Well, if it is God's will, then we will meet." As it turned out, it wasn't God's will; something came up and my trip had to be cancelled. He was a neat guy with a great sense of humor.
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Post by loverofall on Jun 7, 2010 18:38:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the reference. I looked him up and will order his book. Did I have a choice or is just a reaction based on patterns and stimuli. His way of teaching might be the patterns that undo this thinker's patterns. Who knows. That is the question. Who is it that wants to know.
I can see how the ego pattern of control and permanence would have great fear at this. At one time it would of created some issues but now it makes total sense. My bet is beliefs got in the way of seeing this logic.
I do enjoy the patterns of Zen Dancer and his diverse and expansive knowledge on any of these topics.
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Post by Myself on Jun 7, 2010 19:08:08 GMT -5
The key part for me is to see how everything is a reaction to other actions based on previous conditioning. Choices appear but are they really free of all conditioning and personality traits. They can't be. As we interact with the environment we are one with the environment affecting it and it is affecting us. .... Total dependence on everything. There is no independence to the point of there is not separation. It is becoming easier to sit back and relax into this. It can be useful to notice that, but it's not necessarily so. Just to give an example that Enigma posted before: In your dreams it's not the fire that causes wood to burn, but your mind which is the source of the dream. It's not the wind that blows the leaves, but the dreamer him/herself. Similarly, cause/effect and past/future coexist simultaneously. They are not necessarily linked together, but just manifest/appear together. |
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Post by peanut on Jun 7, 2010 20:39:35 GMT -5
Yes loverofall...am right there with you..have recently deepened the realization that thinking is a process...has been interesting to wait for what the next thought will be..no control. How funny when we realize we are not in control at all! Yes feel a weakening also. On a related topic... a couple of years ago while sitting in our RV i looked out to see an orange tree and realized that the same energy in the tree is in this form and all other living beings. Actually felt it.Then went for a walk and where ever "i" looked..no separation...felt like a turning point...this direct experience of no separation. There was no me only the rabbit, only the flower etc. all one. Very impersonal and at the same time very intimate.
Thanks zendancer for the book reference..
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Post by loverofall on Jun 7, 2010 21:17:34 GMT -5
Please elaborate more Myself. I see the patterns more but are you saying the patterns or laws of science are what the self dreams. Are they not constant in this illusion?
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Post by loverofall on Jun 7, 2010 21:55:31 GMT -5
Peanut: I agree its pretty cool to settle into not being in control at a deep level. Its easy at the gross level of I could get hit by a car but taking it down into billions of cells and processes is just the natural application probably blocked by fear in most people.
Never had an experience like you speak and the very act of wanting one could be a stumbling block. Thanks for your input.
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2010 23:49:20 GMT -5
Similarly, cause/effect and past/future coexist simultaneously. They are not necessarily linked together, but just manifest/appear together. From my perspective I would not say past and future co-exist, since this lends an independent reality to that which is merely a mentally formulated continuity. If it appears that past and future have changed places or are otherwise abnormally linked, this is just how mind has constructed that continuity for some reason; perhaps so that it can have the experience of past and future changing places. Past is memory and future is prediction, but in the context of daily life, memory and prediction can be very useful, and in many cases, quite accurate. If I drop a hammer on my toe, my woo woo ability to foretell the future will likely be very impressive, even if the dropping itself is kinda stupid. |
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Post by Myself on Jun 8, 2010 6:42:10 GMT -5
Loverofall: Enigma expanded above.
Indeed, past+future don't need an independent reality.
As you described, we all can predict the future to a 'small' extent.
The hammer and the toe coexist somehow. It just seems to me that cause/effect and past/future coexist in the same way.
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Post by frankshank on Jun 8, 2010 8:24:35 GMT -5
ZD: I've enjoyed watching some of Ramesh Balsekars videos. There's one in particular I enjoyed where he talks about what you get out of enlightenment (What's in it for me gov?). Very funny in a dry sort of way. www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR1xWXZ2ZaM |
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